Kathi (00:00) 

Okay, this is Kathi and Lisa Woodruff and we’re talking about the financial binder. Five, four, three, two, one. Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter -Free Academy where our goal is to help you take small doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And guys, today, okay, it’s the subject that has… 

Roger and I don’t fight much. In fact, we rarely fight. But if we were going to fight, it would be over finances. It just would be. And I’ve got somebody here who is going to make things a whole lot easier for us. You guys, it’s Lisa Woodruff. She is the founder of Organize 365. I love that name. She’s a professional organizer. 

Lisa Woodruff (00:37) 

Ha 

Kathi (00:55) 

and she’s here to solve all of our problems. Lisa, welcome to the podcast. 

Lisa Woodruff (01:00) 

Kathi, thank you for the introduction. I’m not solving all of the problems, but I will be a friend on the journey. Let’s put it that way. 

Kathi (01:03) 

Wait Lisa promises were made no I get it. You know if if you could make this part of our lives 7 % easier that would feel like solving all of our problems. Okay, so here’s my here’s my question Are you just one of those born organized people who was color coding your things in the crib and now we can’t learn anything from you 

Lisa Woodruff (01:18) 

Mm 

Okay, I can do that. 

Well, I was a born organized person, I can’t lie. And my mother did take me shopping with a button box and she would put me on the floor at like Talbot’s or whatever. And I would sort buttons by color for like an hour so she could shop. 

Kathi (01:37) 

Okay. 

Yeah. 

I love that so much. Okay. 

Lisa Woodruff (01:47) 

However, it doesn’t matter if you’re born organized or not born organized, eventually in your lifetime, you are going to become roadkill because life is going to move too fast and you can’t keep up. And you need different organization about every 10 to 20 years. So childhood organization doesn’t work for 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, et cetera. And organization is a learnable skill. So I’m a teacher by trade and I took my born organized -ness and my ability to teach and my roadkill. 

Kathi (02:08) 

Right. 

Lisa Woodruff (02:17) 

decade and I put them all together in my 40s and organized 365 like okay here’s here’s where you know raw talent meets real life and then how can we all actually do this. 

Kathi (02:27) 

Okay, because here’s the thing, guys, I’m gonna, full disclosure, Lisa and I met before, and the reason I met with Lisa before is because I don’t let born organized people come on here that think that they are better than us wonderful, talented, creative, but cluttery folk, right? Because we all have different gifts and different skills, and I think you’re absolutely right. Those of us who loved our color coordinated peachies, 

Lisa Woodruff (02:33) 

You 

Bye! 

Yeah. 

Right. 

Kathi (02:56) 

in the fourth grade, we need an entirely different set of skills. And you know, I’ve just discovered this about myself. The person, the Kathi who sets up the system and the Kathi who has to use the system. Okay, she’s throwing, right, you’re throwing your hands. Okay, you’ve known this much sooner than I have. Explain how you understand this pain. 

Lisa Woodruff (02:58) 

Right. 

Amen. Two different Kathis. 

Mm 

Well, I’ve been recently diagnosed with ADHD. First of all, I don’t know how you’re a woman without it because there are so many things we have to do. But also, mean, setting it up as a project, that’s fun. Using it is work, like that’s not fun. 

Kathi (03:28) 

sister, right? Yes. 

That’s fun! 

Yes, it’s so true, right? And you want me to stop for three whole minutes to put something away? Have we met? Right. It’s so boring. The day to day is so boring. okay. So you were a naturally organized person. So when you and I were talking, was, I, you have a bunch of different binders. First of all, why a binder and not an app? That’s part of my question. 

Lisa Woodruff (03:43) 

Yes. 

Mm 

Okay, so we have why a binder and not an app and why a binder and not a file. So why a binder and not a file is step one. And that’s because, you know, I used to like try to teach people how to do file cabinets. I wasn’t very good at it, but like everybody did it. So that’s what I did until the California fires and the Houston earth, the Houston hurricanes came through and I’ve got customers, you know, messaging me from inside of their attics with hatchets so they can break through the roof. I’m like, 

Kathi (04:14) 

Yeah. 

Right. 

Yes, yeah. 

Lisa Woodruff (04:40) 

I live in Ohio. Like I have no sense for what these people are talking about. And yet they’re like, I have my Sunday basket with me, but what about my filing cabinet? I’m like, it’s just going to be gone. Like all that information is going to be gone. So it must be a binder. 

Kathi (04:42) 

Correct. 

And Sunday Basket is like your day -to -day organization stuff, right? Okay. 

Lisa Woodruff (04:56) 

Yeah, it’s your weekly organizing. So the binder is portable and that is crucial for two reasons. One, if you live in any of the coastal areas, you will evacuate at some point. But two, whenever you need this information, you don’t need it in a file cabinet. You need it at the lawyers, at the hospital, at the wherever. Like your information needs to be portable. So that’s why it’s a binder. And why not an app? Well, you know, everything Organize 365 does is analog because I’m a kindergarten teacher. Like every single human can use my products. 

Kathi (05:01) 

Mm -hmm. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

It’s so true. Yeah. 

Mm -hmm. Right. 

Lisa Woodruff (05:26) 

You can digitize it and make it your own productive thing if you want, but here’s the thing. An app is not necessarily shareable and it doesn’t necessarily stay up to date. So maybe your family is super high tech and you’re all on like Google Drive and you have a password protected and so you have all of your financial information in there and you share it with your siblings and your parents and like your Uber or whatever. I don’t even know who this family is. But as soon as you forget to update the app, it’s pointless. And if you don’t have the password, it’s pointless. 

Kathi (05:33) 

Mm -hmm. Yeah. 

Yes. 

Lisa Woodruff (05:54) 

So apps are personal organization. Binders are global organization. So you’re going to organize in a binder in analog. And we’re going to talk about the financial binder today. The financial binder is like 30 % in your file cabinet, 50 % on your computer, and 20 % in your brain. So even if your family gets to your file cabinet, they only get 30 % of the information. And even if they get online, they’re not going to go to every place that you have stored your information. 

Kathi (06:00) 

and trisome. 

Okay. 

Hmm. 

Lisa Woodruff (06:20) 

So it is a way for you to keep your information updated if you update it annually. And then when you actually need it, which is when someone is gonna be your power of attorney or your power of healthcare or your settle your estate, that is like, you’ve just saved them a year’s worth of work. And when I had to settle my dad’s estate, I didn’t find almost everything that I needed because I just didn’t even know how I would find it. So that’s why not an app. 

Kathi (06:20) 

Yeah. 

Right, absolutely. You know, and if you didn’t have a good answer for why not an app, and I knew you did, I was going to give you my good answer is that it would completely intimidate my mom, who this is, in our family, that’s the most pressing need, right? So, you know, my husband and I are both pretty techie, but it’s interesting. We’re in between two kind of non -techie 

Lisa Woodruff (06:46) 

you 

Right, right. 

Kathi (07:09) 

Our kids are more analog or at least the kid who is responsible enough to do things with our estate. You have to know your kids, right? You know, the one who’s actually gonna do something. And my mom, it would have been really intimidating for her to have to get online. Now she’s able to look things up in small portions as we go through this binder, but she’s not having to input it there, which has been… 

Lisa Woodruff (07:33) 

Mm -hmm. 

Kathi (07:40) 

which has been a godsend, I’m not gonna lie. Okay, so a couple of questions, Lisa. We’re not rich, do we really need to do this? 

Lisa Woodruff (07:48) 

Okay. So first of all, we’re talking about, we like started mid sentence. So this is the organized 365 financial binder. And it was created after I had to settle my dad’s estate. I had to be the power of attorney. And then I was the executor of the estate. And I went to Amazon to Google, like, give me Mad Libs for settling an estate. Doesn’t exist. They’re like four books and that’s it. There’s no like, let me just plug everything into this system. And your financial picture is, has a lot of parts to it. 

Kathi (07:52) 

yes, that’s true. Yeah. 

Right? 

Yeah. 

I love it. 

Yeah. 

Lisa Woodruff (08:18) 

So what you normally hear about is have a will. You should have a will. Have a trust. If you have any assets, you should have a trust. Have a 401k and make sure you have a beneficiary. Agreed. These things are the easiest things to do as the executor. Literally within one week of my dad’s passing, we’d already cashed out the 401k. My sister and I had the money. We transferred the cars into our name. We’d transfer the house into my name. Like that all happened within 10 days. However, the administration of your life 

Kathi (08:18) 

Yeah. 

Okay. 

Hmm 

Wow. 

Lisa Woodruff (08:47) 

needs to be accounted for. A final tax return needs to be done. All of the assets needs to be distributed. You have to get out of the Verizon contract, which is the hardest thing to do. You have to settle every single credit card. You have to shut down the banks. have to like, and none of this is done by your CPA, your tax lawyer. My dad had all the lawyers within a month. They were all gone. And I was just left doing the housework for my dad, just like I do the housework for me. And that’s what people don’t realize. It usually falls to a woman. 

Kathi (08:57) 

right? Yeah. 

you 

It does. 

Lisa Woodruff (09:17) 

And it’s all the administration. Like I’m getting my PhD now and the only literature that we have about this is widowed women who have so much hard time being the administrator of their spouse’s estate. Because you’re also grieved. It’s not like you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna add this to my checklist. No, you’re all of sudden sometimes unexpectedly planning a funeral for someone you love. And now you realize that you were named in their will as the executor. And you’re like, I don’t even know what that is. 

Kathi (09:30) 

And yes. 

Yeah, and it’s interesting because, my mom’s done all this stuff and I’m the executor of her will and I really don’t understand it all because all of this happened with her parents when I was, yeah, I was in the middle of diapers, you know, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t think it through. But as I’ve seen friends go through it and they talk about this, this huge burden and you’re right, like, you know, who’s the executor of ours is one of our daughters. 

Lisa Woodruff (09:59) 

too young. Yep. 

Kathi (10:14) 

Because we know she’ll show up and we know she’ll do the right things and not that the boys wouldn’t but yeah, well anyway, that’s a different discussion. We love our boys, but I think that when we say the word estate, we think vast riches and wealth and most of us. Yeah, I would not think of those things as the estate, right? Okay, so. 

Lisa Woodruff (10:32) 

And I mean your water bill, your garbage bill, your Verizon bill. Right, that’s your estate. 

Kathi (10:45) 

My next question is, you know what? We’re gonna take a quick break. We’re gonna go pay some bills. We’re gonna come back. And then I wanna talk about how do you actually get started with, like what’s in here? You’ve told us a little bit, but like what’s actually in here? And I need some easy steps to get started because if you say, Kathi, I need you to copy your entire financial history or your mom’s entire financial history into this. 

It’s a very short interview. So we’re gonna take a podcast break. We’re gonna come back and then we’re gonna get started with that question. 

 BREAK 11:19 

Kathi (11:34) 

Guys, I am back with Lisa Woodruff, who is the founder of Organize 365, and she is the creator of the PaperSolution Financial Binder. And when we were first talking financial binder, I’m like, why do I need a binder for my bank account? But really, what your end goal with this binder is what? That somebody can do what with it? 

Lisa Woodruff (12:00) 

that if anything were to happen to me, that someone could step in and be power of attorney and ultimately settle my estate. Like we’re all gonna live to be forever, know, a million years old. Don’t worry about it. Nothing is happening to you. However, once you’ve settled in a state, you’re like, my gosh, like if you’ve ever settled in a state, the first thing you do is you go home and you clean out your storage room because you’re like, I am not leaving this problem for someone else. And my husband and I are gonna settle at least five estates. You know, we have siblings and we’re both the oldest. We both have parents. 

Kathi (12:09) 

Absolutely. Right. 

Hmm, yeah. 

Right. 

Lisa Woodruff (12:27) 

They were divorced, so they have, you know, like we are listed on everybody’s. So that is the ultimate, but you know, that’s so far down the road. Then you can like kick this can and be like, I’m not going to do this. So what is in the binder? Number one, you do have some things that you just need. You would put in a file cabinet. So instead of a file cabinet, you’re going to put it your financial binder, like your latest 401k statement. I always keep my social security statement. 

Kathi (12:29) 

yeah. 

Mm -hmm. 

Lisa Woodruff (12:53) 

Like I’m not hope, I don’t know if I’ll ever get this money, but I’m keeping the letters that they send like every couple of years. birth certificate, I put my passport in there, put our marriage certificate in there, my kids adoption certificates are in there, so any of those kind of important papers. I do have in there like our credit report when we get a credit report. If we sign up for a new credit card, I put the credit card in there, so like I just have like that introductory thing that you’re probably never gonna need it. 

Kathi (12:55) 

Right. Yes. 

Mm -hmm. 

interesting, yeah. 

Lisa Woodruff (13:19) 

but you want to put it in file cabinet, you might as well put it in here. You’re really making a scavenger hunt for yourself and others. So if you need it. So like if you pay off a car, that goes in there, like all of our car information is in there. All of my insurance information is in there, life insurance, but also fire, auto, all of that insurance. Anything related to our security system is in there, ADT. Again, life insurance will pay out within a week. Like anything that has a beneficiary attached to it, you will get the money like, 

Kathi (13:22) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yes. 

Hmm. 

Yeah. 

Lisa Woodruff (13:47) 

It’s almost instantaneous. It’s amazing how fast it happens. And the more organized you are, the better. So my husband has a couple of different retirement accounts. I have a couple of retirement accounts. Whenever they give you the annual statement, I just replace it in there and shred the old one. It’s just kind of like you would in your file cabinet. So that’s number one. Just anything you would file, it goes in there and you just keep the most recent one. 

Kathi (13:56) 

Right? 

smart. Right. 

Okay, I love that. Go ahead. 

Lisa Woodruff (14:13) 

So then the second thing is, you I had my father pass, I had a couple of employees who also had settled estates we started compiling all the things that we had to find that we didn’t know we had to find. Like my dad had been in the military. I didn’t know he had a military ID number. I mean, that was before I was even born. Like, so that kind of thing. So you would just write down your military ID number. It’s like a Mad Libs. You know that where you would fill in and you make the funny story. 

Kathi (14:25) 

All right. 

Right? 

Hmm. Yes. 

Lisa Woodruff (14:37) 

So there’s like a line for all kinds of stuff that you may or may not have, but if you have it and it’s your binder, then you just fill that information out. Stuff that you wouldn’t even have on the computer or in your file cabinet is just like you knew that you were in the military, even if your grandchildren don’t know that you were. So that’s kind of like being able to fill things out. And then you can also like put post -it notes in there. Like we do have banking information, we have bank information sheets, and we just ask you where you bank, what kind of a bank account it is. 

Kathi (14:52) 

Right. 

Lisa Woodruff (15:05) 

what the password is, if you have a safety deposit box, where is it located? What’s the number? You know, I mean, you just forget about these things. You don’t need to put down your bank balances. You could even just put, like for me, I could just put down US Bank, 11 accounts, because we do, we have 11 accounts. Like once you get into US Bank, they’re going to give you everything you need. But maybe my family doesn’t know I also have Huntington Bank, and that’s where I keep some of our money for a future business we’re going to purchase, land that we’re going to purchase to build our future. 

Kathi (15:10) 

right, yes. 

Hmm? 

Yeah. 

Lisa Woodruff (15:34) 

building and so it’s not in our main bank account. You may not realize we have two banks. So here’s a great story and why I really started making this financial binder. Quite a few of the people that I organized in Cincinnati were widows. So they would call me in to help them, especially with the paper. They were very overwhelmed. They’d gotten, you know, the life insurance and that it was this detritus that was holding them up and they weren’t used to doing all the bills. And so we would go through their file of cabinets and this one woman’s husband had 

80 binders, 80. He had kept every single paper transaction of every single financial thing he had ever done because it was his hobby. And they were like mutual funds. They weren’t even things where you had to like know the transaction because the value, wasn’t a stock, although he did have stock also. And so she had a bank, Fifth Third, and we went to the bank and we found four bank accounts, which she knew all these bank accounts. And I’m going through her mail every single month. I’m going down there and going through and you can sort paper without looking at like what the dollar amount of values are. It’s weird trick. 

Kathi (16:11) 

my word. 

right? Yeah. 

Mm 

Lisa Woodruff (16:34) 

professional organizers can do. And I’m looking at these bank accounts, I’m like, I swear there’s a fifth bank account, you know, and I’m kind of dyslexic, so I’m not really looking at the numbers, but I’m like, I think we’re always getting five. And she’s like, do you want to go to the bank? I’m like, I do. And like the estate was almost settled, like we’re a year after. We’re there at the bank and they’re like, Mrs. Woodruff, there are only four accounts here. We’ve gone through this, like we’re ready to settle the estate. Everything’s been closed. Everything’s been transacted. I was like, I just think there’s a fifth account. 

And they’re like, do you want us to look for it again? I said, I do. And I’m like a people pleaser. So I’m like, wow, I’m really out on a limb here. Now I’m telling my client we’re at the bank. I’m telling the banker. Kathi, there was another $100 ,000 bank account. This man had set up an LLC and she was like, my gosh, I remember this now. He had put it aside for our dream home we were going to build someday. Cause he died of a massive heart attack, like on the way home from a, he was in his 60s, but he wasn’t really old. 

Kathi (17:08) 

bright. Yes. 

What? 

right. 

Lisa Woodruff (17:31) 

She’s like, I forgot about it. He had created an LLC. So that’s why it didn’t show up when they ran all the social security numbers and we didn’t run across and he didn’t put that LLC paperwork in any of the 80 binders that I went through. And so I have more than one story like this where you just are living your life at breakneck speed and you’re like, just like trying to keep it. I’ll do that later. I’ll do that later. I’ll do that later. And you in your head know and you remember in your head there’s a fifth bank account. 

Kathi (17:36) 

Yes, because it’s a totally different entity. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Right! 

Lisa Woodruff (18:00) 

But there’s literally no trail of it anywhere in this house. $100 ,000, Kathi, $100 ,000. 

Kathi (18:07) 

And who knows what would have ever, know, where that would show up if there would ever be another statement. Yes. my goodness. And here’s what I’ve come to learn is that we don’t know our parents as well as we think we do. And right? They’ve had these lives that we’ve been privy to, you know, just a section of. And so we… 

Lisa Woodruff (18:14) 

It never, it wouldn’t, it wasn’t going to show up ever. Yep. 

True. Yeah. 

Yes. 

Kathi (18:37) 

We don’t even know the questions to ask sometimes. And that’s why I like that the binder is very comprehensive because it asks questions. Yeah, like my mom and dad were never part of the military. And so it feels good that you can say, I don’t have to worry about any of that stuff. Yes, exactly. But you know, I just recently had a client, not a clutter client, a writing client who was getting rid of a bunch of 

Lisa Woodruff (18:52) 

Not that one. 

Kathi (19:06) 

books and binders and things from her mom. And she goes, you know, we settled the estate, you know, this was a decade ago. And she decided she just needed to go through this one binder just to make sure, just to make sure she wasn’t missing any little piece of information. And I can’t remember what the paperwork was, but the paperwork that was in there that they had never seen before entitled them to financial 

compensation that her son, so the deceased grandson, was able to put a new roof on his house. And if you’ve ever put a new roof on your house, you know how crazy expensive that is. And for my client to pay off some huge debts. it’s like, I think, wouldn’t grandma be devastated if that money had not gone to that, right? 

Lisa Woodruff (19:45) 

See. 

if you lost that. And you know, you talk about clutter and we see clutter everywhere and paper is small and tiny and overwhelming. And so we can really cram a lot of paper in a banker’s box. Like we could cram it in there and shove it in the bottom of closet and we’ll take another one and shove it somewhere else. And then we got the laundry basket over here and we’re like, I don’t really have that much paper cause it’s like all over your house. And the other thing I noticed as an in -home professional organizer, which I am not anyway. 

Kathi (20:05) 

Right, something that she had worked so hard for. 

Yes. Yes. 

right? 

Mm 

Lisa Woodruff (20:33) 

anymore. I do it online now. But I still do this in home and we have a certification for this is paper organizing retreats. Because when I would organize paper, I promise you, you start organizing paper 30 minutes in you’re like, where is the wine and I’m out of here. Like, it’s just too much and you don’t know what to do with it and you’re afraid you shouldn’t get rid of it. So you just stop again. But people there’s somebody that loaded their RV full of paper and drove it here from Canada. People will drive 18 hours with their paper. We have a weekend paper organizing retreat. 

Kathi (20:33) 

Okay. Okay. 

Right. 

Yeah. 

Lisa Woodruff (21:02) 

And we have shredding on site because we have professional organizers here, which I know you don’t like that, but you do in this case. And they will, now 50 % of the people coming have lost a spouse or have lost a parent. And they’re just going through all of that paperwork and they just want us to say, shred, keep, shred, keep, you know, and then they’re like, okay, now I’ll go settle the estate because it’s so much work and it’s so rude. Like your life doesn’t stop when you have to settle somebody else’s estate. Like it just keeps spinning. 

Kathi (21:06) 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Right. 

Yes. 

Right? don’t get six months off of work in order to do that. And I think that we are so scared to throw away that one magical piece of paper. it’s so hard to know if this piece of paper is going to be what you need, the key to everything. so I love that the, there are a couple of things I love about the binder. 

Lisa Woodruff (21:30) 

No, it’s so hard. 

Yes. 

Yes. 

Kathi (21:54) 

One, it asks all the right questions. And two, I don’t even know how else to put this, Lisa. It’s a landing place. It’s like a safe landing place, right? And like, what I love what you said is when I get my social security statement, I can throw away the last one because I know that I have the most recent one and then the rest of it can go away. Like I know that when I pay off 

Lisa Woodruff (22:02) 

Yes. Hug it. Yeah. 

Mm -hmm. Yes. 

Kathi (22:24) 

my car note that I know where I am going to put it. And as somebody who lived through the Caldor fire and was out of her house, you know what? I’m very grateful. Our town lost over a thousand structures, almost 800 homes, and we lost two acres of property, but it never came to our house, but it burned on all four sides. And so 

Lisa Woodruff (22:26) 

Yes. 

I’m sorry. 

I’m sorry. 

Kathi (22:53) 

We left, we know, you know, for three weeks we were out of our house. We couldn’t get back in. And for three days we didn’t, we assumed that our house was gone. And you know, and I, we did have one binder that we picked up and took with us, but it wasn’t as comprehensive. And yes, it was like your brain after you leave the house says, where’s that? Where’s that thing? And 

Lisa Woodruff (22:54) 

So you know. Yeah. 

can’t even imagine. 

Kathi (23:22) 

You know, the other thing I love that what you said is about Post -it notes to be able to say, here’s where you can find the key to the box that you need. Here’s, you know, some, you know, there are some weird things that, you know, everybody’s life is weird, right? We all have that one little thing. Like my mom’s weird thing is, Kathi, don’t donate all the milk glass when I die. 

Lisa Woodruff (23:28) 

Stick it in there. Yes. 

Kathi (23:49) 

You know that stuff’s valuable. It’s like okay mom I promised her I won’t do that and I know as we go through the binder there will be a note about the milk glass because that’s really important her like question You know the things that are unique to each of us like my mom’s a quilter What do you want me to do with the quilt to have a place to put all those answers? That isn’t between your two temples is so so important Lisa. Yeah 

Lisa Woodruff (24:08) 

Hmm. Yes. 

and that will give her so much peace because she’ll know she communicated it to you and it will give you so much peace because you’ll know what you can donate and what you really, you know, can’t donate immediately. And also one thing before we go, go ahead and put your passwords in there. Like no one, I promise you, everybody’s like, I can’t put my passwords in here. Trust me, if they come into your house and they go buy the 80 inch TV and they go for your financial binder, which is unlabeled, that is an unusual burglar, no one’s coming in your house to get your passwords to whatever. 

Kathi (24:17) 

Yes, that’s what I want. Right. 

Right. Yes, please. Yes. 

Yes. 

Lisa Woodruff (24:45) 

put your passwords in there. Just put them in there. Even if you just put a post in another good, use US bank, my banker is Tony and here’s my password or whatever. And also go to the bank and just drop off the power of attorney so that they know like, you’re not gonna need it today. But when you do need it, you’ll be so grateful that you did the work ahead of time. And if you don’t do the work ahead of time because you’re pushing off, because you just wanna test your limits, just know that this resource is here. 

Kathi (24:46) 

Yes. 

Right. 

Lisa Woodruff (25:11) 

and it will be a lifeline. And along with that, you get the organized 365 community of people who are also doing these same binders. They’re all living the same experience you’re living, which makes you feel like you’re not going through it alone. 

Kathi (25:22) 

You know, I’m going to also highlight something else that you just said there. Talk to Tony. Because, you know, what we’ve told our daughter is, you know, God forbid something happens to us, our neighbor, which where we live, she’s 30 minutes away, Susie. Yeah, yeah, we live in the forest, but go talk to Susie because she knows about mountain living. She knows about 

Lisa Woodruff (25:29) 

Yeah. 

Sheesh. 

Kathi (25:50) 

She’s an author. I’m an author. Like she’s the key to so much information so you don’t have to figure it out on your own. And I love that you said that, you know, talk to Tony at the bank, leave a little roadmap of the people who are going to be helpful because our children will be sad when we pass and to have people there who can help take care of them, to help take care of your brothers and sisters and all of that is so critical. If you could give. 

Lisa Woodruff (25:57) 

Right. 

Kathi (26:18) 

Just one piece of advice before they get the binder like what they could do right now because I know like you said when you settle in the state you want to go clean out your storage unit, right? What they’re gonna listen to this and say I want to go do something right now and guys we’re gonna give you the link and we’ve got we’ve got a a code for you know, we’re gonna we’re gonna set you up well Because guys whether you’re buying this for yourself or for your parents This is gonna save somebody 

weeks worth of work. So what’s the one piece of advice you could give Lisa for somebody to do right now? 

Lisa Woodruff (26:50) 

so much time. 

Okay, super simple. I want you to go get your favorite container or basket that’s in your house. And I want you to set it aside and I want you to put a post -it note on it that says financial binder. And then as you come across anything that would go in a financial binder, I want it to go in this basket. As you think, that’s right, I wanna write this down, write down a note card, put it in the basket so that when you do get the financial binder, you already have some of your ideas, some of your papers. 

Kathi (27:01) 

Mm -hmm. 

yes. 

Mmm 

Lisa Woodruff (27:21) 

And you could keep on your decluttering journey and going through with all your friends, all the things you do with Kathi and all the different groups that you’re in. But anything financial at a minimum has to start going in this basket and start separating it out from all the other places it is so that even if you don’t have the financial binder yet, you have the beginning. 

Kathi (27:39) 

I love it so much. This is so great. Okay, guys, check the show notes. You’ll see how to get this. Guys, you know, I’m doing this because I’m using it. I only recommend things to you that I’m actually doing and I am doing this because, you know, we have probably three estates that are going to need to be settled in the next 20 to 30 years. And I don’t want to put that burden on somebody else. 

Lisa Woodruff (27:59) 

Mm 

Kathi (28:06) 

They’re already going to have to go through my closet. That’s enough for any human being. right. Lisa, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Lisa Woodruff (28:14) 

Thank you. 

Kathi (28:15) 

And guys, I’m gonna make sure that you have the link to Lisa’s website so you can go check out her other resources because if you’re feeling overwhelmed by any portion of your life, there’s gonna be a way to organize it on Lisa’s website. I’ve checked it out guys, you’re gonna wanna go check it out. And friends, Lisa was here, but friends, we’re so grateful you’ve been here. Thank you for listening to Clutter Free Academy, I’m Kathi Lipp. Now go live the clutter free life you were always intended to live. 

Lisa Woodruff (28:31) 

Thanks. 

Kathi (00:01.578)

Okay, this is, we’re talking with Angie Hyche and Liana George, and we are talking about the dirty words. So you editors are gonna be very intrigued by this. okay, five, four, three, two, one.

Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. Today, we’re diving into a topic that I hope is, as much as we talk about what to do with your hands when it comes to decluttering, I’m hoping that this is going to help your head. That’s my goal for today, and that’s the goal of my two guests, because…

If you’ve ever caught yourself saying, I’ll get to that someday, or I’m just not an organized person. Okay, by the way, nobody’s actually born organized. Can we just be really honest about that? I wanna talk about language today, and so do my two guests. We wanna talk about the language, not just the language you use with the people you love in your home, but the language you use with yourself. I have two amazing guests. First,

I have Angie Hyche and we also have Liana George. Okay guys, sorry. We have Angie Hyche and Liana George. They are the co-authors of the new book, Uncluttered, Shaping Your Heart and Home for What Matters Most. And you guys, you know that’s my jam, right? And they are the co-hosts of the Uncluttered podcast. So we’ve got a bunch of people who love to talk about clutter.

or actually who love to talk about decluttering? Angie is also the author of Unholy Mess, What the Bible Says About Clutter and a professional organizer. And if you don’t think that the Bible talks about clutter, let’s just talk about how a lot of the little red bits of the New Testament are about what you own and what you love. And so I don’t know of a better definition of that than clutter. Liana?

Kathi (02:14.37)

Is a novelist whose first three books draw from her experiences as a professional organizer and her time in China my goodness. Okay. We have so much to talk about ladies. Welcome to the podcast. I’m so glad to have you here today

Angie Hyche (02:29.41)

Thank you, Kathi. We have been looking forward to this for so long. So thank you.

Liana George (02:29.636)

Thank you.

Kathi (02:34.582)

Well, and that’s because your emails kind of got buried in my inbox. That’s why it was so long, but you guys have been so gracious. Liana, I have to ask about your time in China, was that military? Was that missionary? What was that?

Liana George (02:42.214)

Thank

Liana George (02:51.164)

No, it was neither. It was my husband’s company decided to build a facility there And so they moved us there in three weeks. We had three weeks to move Yes, three weeks. We went there July 4th of 2006 and I was back by August 8th So my kids could start school. So yeah, so I really needed to be organized to get an overseas move

Kathi (02:52.941)

Okay.

Kathi (02:56.809)

Nice!

Kathi (03:01.196)

What?

Kathi (03:12.078)

my goodness. Okay. The reason I was so intrigued by that little detail was because I was a missionary in Japan for a year. And talk about a culture change. Yes. So my goodness. Okay, I definitely have to pick up that book. Okay, so I’ll get some book recommendations from you at the end.

When you guys first pitched this idea to me about what you come on and talk about, one of the subjects you gave me was the dirty words of organizing. I’m like, okay, that’s scandalous enough that I am dying to find out what you’re talking about. So Liana, here’s my question. What do you mean by the dirty words of organizing?

Liana George (04:35.214)

Yeah, it’s it’s it is. It’s enough to grab your attention and that’s the whole point. We want to grab your attention because so many times, like you said earlier, you know, it’s the work of our hands that we do when we get organized, but we don’t understand the power that our language has on our efforts to get organized. And so many times we use phrases or words that can severely hamper whatever we’re trying to do. And it’s words like some day later.

Kathi (04:40.302)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (04:51.351)

Mmm.

Liana George (05:05.156)

just in case, I don’t know, or I can’t, right? And so they’re dirty in that, just like the dirty words that we grow up learning not to say, they are, they’re scandalous, right? And they hamper and they hurt us. They don’t, not only, got, when I was working with clients, I’d heard them so much, I was like, you’re hurting my ears, please stop saying that.

Kathi (05:31.48)

Mmm.

Liana George (05:32.552)

So that was, I was like, you know, trying to reframe the way they spoke because we, as we know, the words have power. And so when we use these words, we can either help our efforts or hurt our efforts.

Kathi (05:40.462)

Yeah.

Kathi (05:46.84)

So this is really interesting to me because I’ve got people in my life, some people who, you know, they just naturally tend towards clutter or, you know, maybe they even have hoarding tendencies. And I feel like so often the dirty words aren’t aimed at the stuff, they’re aimed at ourselves. And I wonder…

Angie Hyche (06:08.332)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:11.958)

Okay, so let’s talk about when it’s me, when I’m the one who’s saying, I can’t, I’ll do it later. I don’t have, you know, I don’t have the time right now. I don’t have the energy right now, which could all be true. I, you know, I have been at times in my life where decluttering was the last thing on my list. You know, we were in survival mode, but we, we have to, we have to set our own sea level of what, you know, survival is.

So how do these words affect ourselves, Angie? And then how can we start to, well, let me ask you this Angie, what are the words that you bristle at? know, Liana told us hers, but I would love to hear the ones that you bristle at. And how do you start to change that conversation?

Angie Hyche (07:05.304)

I think the ones, the specific ones that I tend to hear the most and that bother me the most is the just in case. I need to keep this just in case because I might need it. And, you know, there are, there’s, there’s such extremes with that, you know, to say, well, I better take my umbrella just in case it rains. Well, that’s pretty legit, you know, it might, but some of our just in cases are so outlandish.

Kathi (07:13.486)

Mmm.

Kathi (07:17.484)

Yeah.

Kathi (07:22.168)

Mm

Kathi (07:29.152)

Right.

Kathi (07:34.988)

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hyche (07:35.446)

You know, to say, I’m going to keep six months of supplies just in case of a zombie apocalypse is completely different. So, so many times with each of these, we talk about, here’s what we’re saying. Here’s what we’re really saying though. And so with the just in case what we’re, think many, many times what we’re saying down deep is

Kathi (07:53.792)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Angie Hyche (08:04.63)

I’m afraid. I’m afraid that if I let this go, I’m not going to have the opportunity to have it again. And ultimately, at its deepest level, it’s, God’s not going to take care of me. He does not have my back. And that’s pretty deep.

Kathi (08:06.304)

It, you know, yeah.

Kathi (08:21.294)

Yeah, long-time listeners of this podcast will know that I talk about the fear, guilt, and shame of clutter, fear, what if I need it someday, guilt, but so and so gave it to me and shame, I spent so much money on it. And like, those are the three reasons that we keep things are fear, guilt, and shame. And what you’re talking about here is a deep fear. You know, if we had

Angie Hyche (08:29.492)

Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. yes.

Angie Hyche (08:41.677)

Mm

Angie Hyche (08:46.249)

Mm

Kathi (08:47.286)

grandparents who went through the depression, the thought, you know, and that’s been passed down to their kids and sometimes us, you know, you can’t throw anything away because what you’re saying is I don’t value anything and yet we just live in a land and a time of abundance. It’s not so much so I mean, there are people who let’s be clear, they don’t have enough food, they don’t have enough resources.

Angie Hyche (09:03.22)

Mm

Angie Hyche (09:08.46)

Yes.

Kathi (09:15.554)

But for those of us who are listening to a clutter podcast, that’s probably not the situation as much as it is. I don’t know what I have. So I have to buy more. so how do you start to, you know what, we’re going to take a quick break, but then I’m going to come back to you, Liana, and ask, how do we start to, I always call it, you know, I like to call it, how do we gently parent ourselves?

Angie Hyche (09:22.892)

Yes.

Angie Hyche (09:26.924)

Mm

Kathi (09:44.952)

to not be so hard on ourselves, but to say, there a different way of thinking? So I’m gonna come back and ask you that question when we’re done with our commercial. We’ll be right back.

Angie Hyche (09:45.029)

Mm.

Kathi (09:57.728)

Okay friends, we’re back and I just put Liana on the spot, because that’s what we do on a podcast about how do we start talking to ourselves in a different way? We wouldn’t tell our kids, don’t be afraid, just suck it up. But that’s how we talk to ourselves so much of the time, isn’t it? Like what you’re feeling is stupid, stop it. And we would never talk to a child or a dear friend that way, but we can be so hard on ourselves. So how do we start to…

Liana George (10:14.203)

it in.

Kathi (10:24.734)

unpack this fear that’s making us hang on to things that we don’t really need and start to have a new conversation.

Liana George (10:33.242)

Yeah, so one of the things that we encourage in the book, because this is one of our devotionals, you know, talking about these words. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do for the practical part of this, and like you said, to start talking to ourselves, is to write down what are the words that I do say? What are the words that I hear myself saying when I’m organizing or decluttering? And, you know, write those down and then write down

what do you think you’re really saying? Like Angie said a minute ago, what are we deep down really trying to saying to ourselves? And then write down, how can I reframe that question differently? And just by I think going through that, taking the time to go through those little steps, I think can help us really understand, wait, you know, this is, this isn’t what I meant, because, but because I’m acting out of this, either it’s

fear, confusion, misunderstanding, doubt, you know. And then once you can identify those, I think it’s easier for you to process that information and then start speaking differently.

Kathi (11:46.574)

So I’m going to give you some common phrases that I hear when it comes. This is like $60 ,000 pyramid. I’m going to give you the common phrase, and I need the response. OK, and I’m going to go back and forth with you guys. So Angie, we’re going to start with you. I just don’t know where to put it.

Angie Hyche (11:51.234)

Okay.

Angie Hyche (12:01.59)

Yes. All right.

Angie Hyche (12:07.0)

yeah. this is similar to, well, I’ll just put it here for now. this is, this is so common. And I think usually what we mean when we say that is, well, I don’t really want to deal with this.

Kathi (12:15.018)

Right, yeah.

Kathi (12:31.926)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Angie Hyche (12:33.354)

And our excuse is, well, I don’t know where to put it. I don’t want to deal with this. And so then what ends up happening is that item becomes clutter because we put it on the kitchen counter or on the floor or whatever. it’s, it’s, it’s basically, it’s just kind of an excuse to procrastinate. so I think, when we do that, you know, I’ll do it later. I’ll do this just for now. Then many times the later never really comes around.

Kathi (12:49.837)

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (13:03.256)

And whereas if we take the time to do it correctly, then that clutter is not going to build up. know, our book is a devotional book and scripture and one of the scriptures that’s good for this one is Proverbs 13 for lazy people, what much, but get little, but those who work hard will prosper. Now, is it laziness in every situation? No, no, not necessarily, but sometimes it is like, just don’t want to deal with it.

Kathi (13:26.498)

No. Yeah.

Angie Hyche (13:32.994)

So it comes back to that principle that organizers are notorious for saying because it’s so important, having a home for everything. And if you have a home for everything, that pickup is just a breeze. Okay, here’s this. I know where that goes up. I’ll go ahead and… But it’s those items that we haven’t yet established the home for that end up becoming clutter because we haven’t gone through the thinking to try to establish that home.

Kathi (13:40.81)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (14:00.314)

Yeah, I think very few people are actually lazy. I think that they are just so overwhelmed and it’s more of a mental exhaustion than it is a physical. You know, there are times when I’m like, yeah, I’m done for the day because I’ve been working hard all day and it’s like it is time for a little Netflix and you know, whatever I made for dinner. Yes, please. But I think so much of the time, you know, I look at these people who

Angie Hyche (14:05.418)

Mm -hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Angie Hyche (14:23.276)

absolutely.

Kathi (14:29.272)

who struggle with clutter and they’re not lazy. They’re loving their neighbors. They’re cooking for other families. They are working hard at work and when they get home, they cannot make one more decision. Liana, what do you do for the person who is like, I’m just overwhelmed? And by the way, I wrote a book called Overwhelmed and I think overwhelmed is a terrible term because

Angie Hyche (14:37.025)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:57.41)

We can’t get to the heart of what it is, but when somebody’s overwhelmed, how do you determine what is it that’s at the heart of that indecision?

Liana George (15:07.728)

Yeah, I mean, like you said, I agree completely. Decision fatigue is a real thing. It is. And whether you have been busy all day working and you have to come home and you’re like, cannot make one more decision, or you’ve just been decluttering and you’re like, I do not know what to do or how to make any more decisions about my stuff. It’s a real thing. And we can become overwhelmed. We can become frustrated. And I think what we have to do is just when we get to that

We really just need to stop and we need to tell ourselves we’ve done enough for today and it’s okay. We can start again tomorrow. Or, you know, maybe we try not to conquer everything and we try to go for smaller portions so that it’s not so overwhelming and daunting. So I think we need to start small and I think we need to start small in places that are the most impactful.

So I think if you start small, it’s, I always tell people what small space can we change today that will make a difference in your life tomorrow? And sometimes that could be, maybe it’s the kitchen. I can’t get my family’s food on the table because the dining room’s too cluttered. Or maybe it’s just your bathroom sink where you get things ready in the morning with your hair and makeup.

So it’s just maybe starting something small. And I think just making those small little tweaks or decisions can make a big difference.

Kathi (16:39.33)

You know, I was just gonna ask Angie, but I feel like you just answered it. can talk more about this. But I think so often, part of the reason of our frustration is our expectations are out of line with our reality. That kitchen table took three weeks to get to that state. And we expect it to be cleaned up.

Angie Hyche (16:54.626)

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hyche (17:02.338)

Yeah.

Kathi (17:05.486)

in 10 minutes and we get frustrated with ourselves that we can’t do it in 10 minutes. It’s that all-or-nothing thinking. So Angie, how do we combat all-or-nothing thinking with being gentle with ourselves without beating ourselves up?

Angie Hyche (17:21.836)

Yeah. So I think I love how you came back to, know, most of the time it’s not laziness and I agree. and, but it’s also true that like the more frequently we do these little, I’m a big fan of daily pickup, like five minutes daily pickup. So if we’re doing that, even if it’s not every day, even if it’s three or four days a week, we’re spending five minutes.

Kathi (17:41.38)

Yeah, yeah.

Angie Hyche (17:51.376)

the amount of clutter will be so much less when we do get around to, to working on it. and I think that the key thing about these dirty words, whatever we do, they just leave us so paralyzed. And, and if we start saying, you, can’t believe you, you’ve let this go so long and, and, you’re the worst.

That’s just gonna leave us exactly in our tracks. Whereas if we say, okay, this is definitely not the state that I want it to be. I’ve let things go a little too long, but it’s okay. God loves me no matter what, no matter what kind of mess I’m in. So what can I do right now? What time do I have? How can I spend the next… How long do I… Let’s say I have five, 10 minutes. Okay.

Kathi (18:29.984)

Bye.

Angie Hyche (18:49.24)

If my goal is to get my family dinner on the table, can I spend five or 10 minutes clearing this space and then say, okay, so for the, for right now, I had to set these things over here just for now because we needed to eat dinner. So tomorrow during that time, I’m going to work on the things that I had to set aside and just, just forgive yourself for no one can keep up with that all the time. I mean, we look at these things on Pinterest or in a

Kathi (19:02.693)

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (19:18.228)

home magazines or look at that my home should look like that nobody’s home looks like that unless they’re just getting ready to have somebody over really influential you know it’s okay yes exactly

Kathi (19:22.735)

Nobody does, yeah.

Kathi (19:27.936)

Or they’re selling their house. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask this question as we’re wrapping up here. You know, I’ve got people in my, well, I’ve got a lot of people in my life, because we run a big group, Clutterfree Academy. And, you know, people are so hard on themselves. But I also have people in my life who, you know,

Liana George (19:29.914)

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (19:50.7)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (19:55.971)

well, of course my house is a mess, it’s always a mess, or they’re just so hard on themselves. And I try to come back with, it’s okay, you’re a wonderful person, let me help you, let’s figure this out together. And by the way, I’m sure people tell you this all the time, I could never have you guys, have you over to my house.

And I’m like, no, I’m the person you can absolutely have to your house because I’ve had to dig out of it. totally get it. So Liana, what do we tell to the person that we love that is, that is just, they, the dirty words are about them, that I’m a mess. I can’t take care of it. you know, my house is always a mess. There’s something.

intrinsically wrong with me. How do we speak life to that person that we love and we know that they’re a good person, but they do struggle with clutter?

Liana George (21:00.168)

And that’s really, I think, really, really important and that we do that. And I just want to say to your point of, you know, people saying, I can’t have you over. I always tell them I’m a judgment-free zone, right? Because like you said, there are times when my house is a mess and we all have it. But for those who are struggling with their identity in this organization, you know, one perfection is not a real thing.

Kathi (21:11.704)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (21:17.196)

Mm

Liana George (21:27.696)

You know, we need to let that go. But two, being organized is a learned skill. It’s like you said earlier, you know, nobody is born that way. is some that granted. I believe that there are some people who have a more natural tendency for it than others. But it is definitely a learned skill that anybody can learn to do. And so, you know, don’t be so hard on yourself because the other thing you have to remember is you’ve got your own organizing style.

Kathi (21:55.479)

Yes.

Liana George (21:56.378)

I think so many times people compare what they see on TV or in magazines and they think that they have to do it just like that. And when they do it just like that and they try it for a few weeks and it doesn’t work, then they are like, I’m a failure. See, I can never be organized. And that’s only because they just haven’t found the system or the style that works for them. And so I would tell them, be gentle with yourself and figure out what works for you.

Kathi (22:13.56)

Yeah.

Kathi (22:24.962)

Mm -hmm.

Liana George (22:25.626)

try something and if it doesn’t, you if you see that this isn’t working doing it this way or having them, you know, with lids or in covered bins, then you know what? Next time try using bins with no lids and clear bins, right? So you can maybe see what is different. And I mean, it took me, okay, I’m a professional organizer. It took me years to figure out my own children. They’re organizing style, right? And once I did, was like a light bulb went off.

Kathi (22:39.95)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (22:51.522)

right? Yes. Yes.

Liana George (22:54.382)

And we could have peace in our house because I didn’t expect them to organize like me and I could see what their strengths were and they’re organizing and it made a world of difference. But it took us a long time to figure it out.

Kathi (23:05.782)

You know, it’s so funny. I just had a couple of people over at my house and they were cooking in my kitchen and they’re like, your kitchen is so organized. I can’t, you know, I, could never get mine this organized. I’m like, guys, it’s not that I’m more organized than you. I’ve been willing to rip out more systems than you have. And when I say systems, it’s not like I went and bought a system. It’s like, okay, well, these containers kind of fit here and I could put the lids over here.

Angie Hyche (23:25.471)

That’s good.

Kathi (23:34.614)

and let’s see if that works. And it didn’t work eight times, but the ninth time it did work. And it’s like, okay, if Rubbermaid ever stops manufacturing that size container, I have to start all over again. And you know, like if you move your house, if you move to a new house, you have to start all over again. But what you’ve learned is you’ve learned more about yourself as a person.

Angie Hyche (23:40.352)

Mm -hmm.

Liana George (23:50.897)

Yes.

Kathi (24:01.686)

Like what am I willing to put away and what am I not willing to put away? And I’ve just had to learn that I’m from a mixed marriage where I love putting away my Tupperware Rubbermaid kind of stuff because it finally works. And my husband would rather poke his eyes out than put that stuff away. And I’m like, you know what, for the sake of our marriage, just put it on the counter. I got you, babe. And so, you know, knowing that is good, right? And it’s good and it’s deep. Okay, you guys, this is a devotional.

Angie Hyche (24:02.434)

Mm -hmm.

Angie Hyche (24:23.405)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:30.838)

It’s called Uncluttered, shaping your heart and home for what matters most. And guys, as we talk about all the time in Clutter-Free Academy, Clutter-Free for Life, and here on this podcast, the physical clutter is just one aspect of it. But instead of being overwhelmed, start searching for freedom. Start asking yourself questions, because here’s the thing, your organizational system does not define you, but how you approach your stuff.

Angie Hyche (24:45.933)

Thank you.

Kathi (24:59.522)

how you bring God into it and how you work towards peace really does matter. And this is an excellent guide and I’m going to, we’re gonna put the link in the notes so that you guys can go check it out at all of your favorite retailers, Amazon, all those favorite places. We will make sure that you get those links. Angie and Liana, thank you so much for being here today.

Liana George (25:24.408)

Thank you so much for having me.

Angie Hyche (25:24.62)

You are welcome. It’s been a joy. You know, when you were talking about so many times, that whole guilt and shame thing is so strong. I think so many times people will say, I’m not a good wife. I’m not a good mother. Because you look at my house, I’m not, you know, and it’s just, it can be such a stronghold emotionally. I came across someone’s work that I really liked, Casey Davis, her website is Struggle Care.

Kathi (25:32.866)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (25:47.202)

Yeah.

Kathi (25:52.943)

I love Casey. Yes. Yes.

Angie Hyche (25:54.646)

Yeah, but her statement, and I love to say every once in while, cleaning and organizing are morally neutral. That has nothing to do with who you are as a person. You are just as much a loved child of God if your house looks like insanity as you are if, you know, and honestly, like there have been times in my life when I’ve been too concerned with order and not enough concerned with like pouring love into my family. So

Kathi (26:01.356)

They are right.

Angie Hyche (26:24.0)

You can’t, know, it’s difficult to get that exactly right. And so much of it is trial and error. I tried this, this works, this doesn’t work. And it’s constant adjustment. We’re all works in progress.

Kathi (26:35.766)

Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, we never learned anything from perfect people. I only learned from people who are like, you know, like Casey Davis, who I’ve got one of those gripper things because of her for, you know, about two days a month. I, I call them my down days where I just don’t have a lot of energy. I don’t have a lot of strength, but I still want to get things done. And being able to have that little grabber tool.

Angie Hyche (26:42.804)

Mm.

Angie Hyche (26:51.138)

Hmm.

Kathi (27:05.454)

She does things that I don’t need to do because I don’t have a chronic illness, but she has like her laundry basket on wheels and she can scooch around in a chair. Like you do what you have to do. You ask for the help that you need. You bring in the resources that you can. And it doesn’t matter if your mom didn’t do it that way, your best friend didn’t do it that way, or the professional organizer didn’t do it that way. Whatever keeps your nose above water.

Angie Hyche (27:19.424)

Yes.

Kathi (27:34.828)

That’s the right thing to do. And I love that there is that grace in this book. Guys, thanks so much for being here today.

Angie Hyche (27:35.2)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Angie Hyche (27:40.374)

Mm

Liana George (27:42.192)

Thank you.

Angie Hyche (27:42.838)

Thank you, Kathi.

Kathi (27:43.786)

Well, and friends, thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to Clutter -Free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp. Now, go create the clutter-free life you’ve always wanted to live.