Kathi (19:50.183)
Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And I am back for part two with my conversation with my co-author, HP, excuse me, HSP specialist, and my dear, dear friend, Cheri Gregory. Cheri, welcome back to Clutter Free Academy.

Cheri Gregory (20:13.858)
Hey, it is wonderful to be back, Kathi.

Kathi (20:16.851)
So it’s really interesting when we have psychological things to unpack in the clutter free community, I run to Cheri because she has thought about all of these things in very, no, you know, well, maybe you are, but your psychosis has worked well for me for years to help me unpack some things. And if you haven’t heard part one of our conversation, go back and listen to that. We’re talking about.

Cheri Gregory (20:29.006)
Because I’m psycho.

Cheri Gregory (20:37.259)
I’m out.

Kathi (20:43.703)
the link between perfectionism and clutter, because in my paid group, Clutter Free for Life, that was the topic that kept coming up for people over and over and over again. I think it’s really interesting when I’m first talking to people about clutter, like the, you know, oh, I have clutter in my house, and if we get into a conversation about it, the first layer is people talking about their circumstances.

Cheri Gregory (21:12.119)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Kathi (21:12.555)
Like I’ve got little kids or my husband doesn’t want to get rid of things or I came like it’s a lot of the External and maybe that’s not all external, you know, I mean and I’m not saying that’s not legitimate Holy cow. Is it legitimate? Especially if you have a partner who is not partnering If you have kids who their only job is to bring paint home papers from school like that is their full-time gig Yes

Cheri Gregory (21:28.503)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (21:42.351)
That is it. But I think that we start to address some of those things and we start to realize for some of us, me included, that the clutter issues go deeper. And I think, you know, perfectionism, that whole idea of until I have all the time to do it, I have none of the time to do it. Until I have all the space for my life, I have none of the space for my life.

Cheri Gregory (21:53.599)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (22:04.271)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (22:10.109)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (22:12.339)
I can cook, you know, 10 meals at a time. I can’t cook a grilled cheese sandwich. Like, I mean, these are the things that we tell ourselves. And I think we know.

Cheri Gregory (22:21.842)
Until everybody in the family cooperates with me, I can’t even attempt to do anything different than what’s currently happening.

Kathi (22:25.319)
Yes. Right. And please hear me. You guys have legitimate reasons to be frustrated. But I also know that I spent, personally, Kathi Lipp spent a lot of time focused on Roger’s minimal clutter, because I didn’t understand it, but I totally understood mine.

Cheri Gregory (22:53.006)
Mm-hmm. Hehehe.

Kathi (22:53.063)
Like I knew why I put that there for now and things like that. So, and Roger’s definitely the less cluttery person in this relationship, but I think we naturally do that. We look for the, the outside solvable thing. And then once we’ve solved a lot of those things, we can turn to the inside solvable things, because let’s be honest, the inside is a lot tougher oftentimes. And so.

Cheri Gregory (23:09.88)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (23:19.657)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (23:22.747)
Cheri, I want to ask you, you know, what are, first of all, what were some of the emotional steps? Because can I just make an observation and Cheri, if you want me to delete this from the podcast, I will be happy to, but well, no, I won’t be happy to, but I will.

Cheri Gregory (23:38.769)
Well, I’m now so very curious. Keep going.

Kathi (23:41.231)
Okay, so you and I have been doing online meetings for, I mean, over a decade, long over a decade. And whenever I’ve talked to you, there has been a screen behind you. I’m assuming, like most of us, you know, we had our Zoom screens and things like that, because there was real life going on behind you, and you didn’t want to distract people with that. Today, there’s no screen, and you and I haven’t been on Zoom in a while. I don’t know when this

Cheri Gregory (23:47.991)
Oh yeah.

Cheri Gregory (23:52.427)
Hahaha!

Kathi (24:11.639)
But there’s a real transformation in your space, is that correct?

Cheri Gregory (24:15.358)
Oh yeah, I get in my office again this month, but I did it very differently than I have in the past. And so it’s actually turning into a functional space.

Kathi (24:25.351)
Okay, I wanna know first of all, were there some mental and emotional differences in how you approached your clutter this time? I’m sorry, I didn’t tell you I was gonna ask you about any of this stuff, but I didn’t see your office until 20 minutes ago.

Cheri Gregory (24:34.402)
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no. Yeah, I can actually tell you the story about how it happens. So, you know that a couple of years ago, our landlord decided to do a renovation of our kitchen. And Jonathan and I took, well, we had to take everything out. And then they gutted it. So, yes, my son, Jonathan, he’s the hashtag mathematician in the kitchen. He’s an amazing cook and baker.

Kathi (24:46.738)
Yes!

Kathi (24:57.547)
Jonathan’s her son. Just so you guys know, yeah.

Cheri Gregory (25:04.414)
And so we did go through and declutter things because I’m like, I don’t want to store anything that we’re not actually gonna keep. And he was like, I don’t want to bring back into the new kitchen anything we’re not gonna keep. So we had a circumstance that helped us do that. But then when all the new cupboards and appliances and everything was in there, Jonathan had been thinking about how to put things back in the kitchen. He used what’s called design thinking. And don’t ask me what that is, because I actually don’t know.

Kathi (25:17.688)
anyhow.

Kathi (25:30.467)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Cheri Gregory (25:32.722)
All I know is that the end result was he had a plan, a mental plan for where everything was gonna go and it was based on function, not form. It was based on function like this is a baking station and this is a cooking station and this is the cleanup station and this space will always be left clean and he threatened dire consequences to anybody who left things there. And it’s not a big kitchen. And so I wasn’t sure if his plan was gonna work, but not only…

Kathi (25:44.234)
Mmm.

Kathi (25:55.191)
Ha ha ha!

Cheri Gregory (26:02.338)
had we decluttered enough stuff that we were able to move everything in and it’s very like he the kids, both of my kids, Jonathan and Marie, they were adamant, no stacking frying pans on top of each other. So you have to kill yourself and want to swear in order to find the one that you want, like really lots of margin. And then we then Jonathan told me the most important thing. He said, once we get everything set up, then we live with it. We experiment. We see it all as a grand experiment.

Kathi (26:15.915)
Hmm, yeah.

Kathi (26:22.091)
Mmm.

Cheri Gregory (26:30.514)
And then we keep tweaking and we keep having conversations and anything that’s not working, we redo it until it works. And I almost can’t believe I’m saying this, Kathi, but our kitchen works flawlessly. Like there is when Anne Marie visits once or twice a year, she can find anything she wants because it makes sense where it is. And Daniel can find where to put it back. So when I gutted my office, I decided I wanted anything that wasn’t going to serve me in the year 2024 in it.

Kathi (26:33.023)
Yes.

Kathi (26:38.966)
Mm.

Kathi (26:43.816)
Oh my goodness.

Kathi (26:51.021)
Right.

Cheri Gregory (27:00.682)
and I have some projects I really need to finish in 2024. And so I got rid of a whole bunch of stuff. We can talk about how I made those decisions in a second if you want. But then I realized, okay, I’m not coming in here and trying to set up something pretty. In fact, if you look behind me, it’s kind of chaotic looking. It’s, I mean, it’s not gonna go on a, on any kind of a magazine cover.

Kathi (27:00.771)
Hmm.

Kathi (27:04.491)
Right.

Kathi (27:09.996)
Okay.

Kathi (27:22.607)
say it’s chaotic looking, I would say is definitely function over form. So you’re not, you weren’t trying to put curtains up so that you wouldn’t see the books or anything like that. You can see the books, but you could probably find the books too.

Cheri Gregory (27:28.371)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (27:33.266)
Oh no. No no no.

Yes, and my books are not organized by here’s all the red books or turned around the other way. That’s not decorator friendly at all. But right now I have post-it notes so you can find I can find my books like I needed a particular book today and I reached and I was able to find it. So, so I got rid of everything that didn’t belong in 2024. And now I’m approaching it like a working kitchen. Only it’s my working office and I am

Kathi (27:42.677)
Right.

Kathi (27:46.165)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (27:49.708)
Yeah.

Kathi (27:58.295)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (28:02.859)
Mmm.

Cheri Gregory (28:05.286)
As let’s say I’m working on something and that I don’t know where to put it instead of shoving it somewhere. I pause and I ask myself why don’t I know where to put this? Why do I have the urge to set it here or shove it there? What part of my system isn’t working right now or have I not planned for? So that there is a process so that there is a workflow and I’ve given myself. Yeah.

Kathi (28:11.618)
Right?

Kathi (28:16.06)
Mmm.

Kathi (28:29.067)
What a great question though. Why don’t I know where to put this? What a great question. Holy cow. Yeah, that’s really good.

Cheri Gregory (28:36.298)
Yeah. And so I don’t know if you can see, but I’ll show you over here. On the floor is a 40 by 40 square of paper and I’ve got stuff stacked all over it to simulate the bulk of a chair I’m thinking of purchasing. Now, I have not bought a decent piece of furniture in so long. I don’t even know how to, but I have found a chair that I’m kind of in love with. But rather than rather than be perfectionistic, Kathi, rather than go get it and then have buyer’s remorse and then beat myself up because I can never make good decisions.

Kathi (28:45.769)
Okay?

Kathi (28:52.867)
Hahaha

Okay.

Yeah. Right.

Cheri Gregory (29:04.802)
And rather than be like, oh, forget it. It would just be a waste of money. I probably wouldn’t use it anyways. I’m experimenting by putting something that size and shape there. And I’ve been living with that for about a month to see, am I okay with that amount of bulk, with that amount of floor space being used up? Now, obviously I can’t sit on it and enjoy it, but I’m just trying to see, do I resent the loss of floor space? And so the thing that is anti-perfectionism about this is,

Kathi (29:04.888)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (29:10.465)
right?

Kathi (29:19.82)
Hmm.

Kathi (29:23.773)
Right. You’re right.

Kathi (29:29.027)
Mmm.

Cheri Gregory (29:32.818)
I’m experimenting. I’m like, there is no one right way to do this. It is, it’s very fluid and I’m expecting this to take several months. And then I expect that I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna start finding little parts that don’t work or maybe something about a project changes and I’m gonna need to keep asking these questions along the way. So it has, it’s been transformational to think, because here’s the thing, in our kitchen,

Kathi (29:34.871)
Yeah.

Kathi (29:43.831)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (29:55.754)
So good.

Cheri Gregory (30:01.442)
One of the things I used to do in my office is I used to leave things out because I was just going to come back to it the next day. We don’t do that in our kitchen. Like Jonathan uses his pizza cutter every single day. He doesn’t leave it on the counter. We wash it and put it away in the drawer. When he needs it next, he pulls it out again, right? And so I’m taking that approach in my office now where it’s like, I really want to be able to just have it settled at the end of the day where everything goes back where I think its place is.

Kathi (30:07.004)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (30:13.899)
Right. Yes.

Right.

Kathi (30:27.127)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (30:30.314)
so the next day I can come in and keep using it. So something about that metaphor of a working kitchen that has been experimented with and just bringing that into my office, it’s really been transformational. And to have permission to not have to get it right and to not try to find some external system, like I don’t believe that you could tell me how to do this. I did no research. I didn’t buy anything, Kathi. I bought no folders. I didn’t go to Office Depot.

Kathi (30:55.807)
Right? Yes.

Cheri Gregory (30:59.53)
Like I bought nothing. In fact, all I’ve done is use what I already have and got rid of some things that were just taking up space. But what I believe is I have the knowledge I need to experiment, to practice, and to see what works and what doesn’t work, and to continue working with that.

Kathi (31:18.571)
There are so many things I love about that. Why don’t I know where this goes? So that is such a great question and I also think about a professional kitchen professional kitchens do not have Five wine openers because they’re a professional kitchen. They have one wine opener. They know where it is They don’t have to go down under other stuff to be able to find it they it’s simple the

Cheri Gregory (31:22.828)
Mmm.

Cheri Gregory (31:38.859)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (31:42.557)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (31:47.511)
The counters are clear. They have workspace because they understand the importance of workspace. You know, we have not an instant pot, an air fryer that we use almost every day, but it also gets put away every day. And it’s very light. Now I wouldn’t do that with like the stand mixer because man, that thing scares me. But that sits out on the counter. It gets used about once a week.

Cheri Gregory (31:50.943)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (32:00.846)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (32:06.216)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (32:13.673)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (32:17.527)
But I need counter space more than I need access. I mean, you know, more than I need it to be easy because, you know, the air fryer’s already making my life easier. And so I’m willing to go get it. I’m willing to go put it away, that whole thing. I love this idea and the, okay, but you made a promise and I’m going to follow up on that promise.

Cheri Gregory (32:22.467)
Hmm.

Cheri Gregory (32:26.142)
Yes.

Kathi (32:43.071)
that you said you would tell us how you made decisions about what you kept and what you gave away in your office. So I wanna hear what your decision-making process was there.

Cheri Gregory (32:49.61)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (32:53.922)
Well, it was helpful for me to have a vision of what I needed, which is I need this office to be useful for 2024. I mean, that really gave me a goal, like nothing in here clogging up that isn’t going to be used in this year. And so that means… Yeah, I am. And…

Kathi (33:09.975)
Because you’re doing big things this year. Can you mention a couple of the things you’re doing? I mean, just so people have an idea of how you’re using your office? Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (33:17.254)
Well, my goal is to finally finish my doctoral work and that’s the bookshelf back there and the bookshelf back there, which one of the reasons I haven’t finished it is because everything’s been piles and boxes. And so now I can literally, oh, and I bought myself a new office chair. I’ll send you the photo of my old one versus my new one. I mean, it’s embarrassing talking about, you know, again, so as perfectionists, we can’t start organizing unless we can do it all. And yet we will have a chair that’s 10 years old and looks like garbage.

Kathi (33:27.645)
Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (33:32.439)
Okay.

Cheri Gregory (33:45.57)
Make it make sense. It doesn’t make sense, right? So, but I in my nice new chair, I could roll over and I could pick anything off the shelf that I need at a moment’s notice. And I know exactly where everything is. And I, and it’s organized in a way that works for me. Like I didn’t hire someone to come in and do it. Not nothing wrong with that, but I need to know where my things are. So let’s see. What are some of the things I got rid of? Kathi, would you believe I finally dismantled the binders for the manuscript development team for overwhelmed?

Kathi (33:47.174)
Yeah, it doesn’t. That’s okay though.

Kathi (33:53.987)
Wow.

Kathi (33:58.781)
Mm.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (34:15.954)
And for your listeners, Overwhelmed was released in 2017. And I was like, oh, but I loved doing this book with Kathi so much. And I just had to realize that nothing in those binders caused me to be connected to you in any way, shape or form. Like you didn’t know about the binders. You didn’t live inside the binders.

Kathi (34:16.263)
Okay, you guys.

Kathi (34:38.079)
I did not. I didn’t know that any part of me existed inside the binders. And by the way, we have the book. The book has been published. Yeah, so no, I think. But you know what? Here’s the thing that I have noticed. I don’t think that’s as silly as we think it is, because I have my own binder story. I was a sales rep before I knew you, Cheri. And we used to have to carry around.

Cheri Gregory (34:40.257)
No.

Cheri Gregory (34:44.012)
No.

Yeah, I know.

Cheri Gregory (35:05.313)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (35:08.171)
these giant portfolios of different, like here was my catalog for ANA Plus, and here was my catalog for Carolina Candles. And we had these giant leather binders that all those went into, and they were expensive and they were hard to come by. And so a lot of me was invested, and I kept, even though I was no longer a sales rep,

Cheri Gregory (35:17.454)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (35:21.71)
Hmm

Cheri Gregory (35:27.362)
oooo

Kathi (35:35.063)
They sales reps were not using those kind of binders anymore because everything was digital But because it was such an important part of my life at the time Those binders were hard to get and they were so valuable to me at that time in my life I had a very hard time getting rid of them that overwhelmed binder you had Represented so much work. It was such a big part of our lives

Cheri Gregory (35:40.573)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (35:53.558)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (35:57.484)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (36:00.797)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (36:03.899)
It was such, I mean, that’s one of the most important books I’ve ever written. I would say it’s in my top three. And yeah, I mean, it feels a little bit like throwing away somebody we love to get rid of something that was so important. So I understand it, but we also have to use our own, we have to tell ourselves, Kathi does not exist in the binders.

Cheri Gregory (36:08.67)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (36:20.382)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kathi (36:31.131)
The concepts do not exist in the binders my future with this book. Yeah. Okay, so that you got rid of it Right

Cheri Gregory (36:33.566)
Yep. Yeah. Well, and the amount of dust on top of the binders made it really clear that I wasn’t referencing anything in them, like whatever fear had caused me to hang on to it. You know, I spent a lot of the week that I really did the deep gutting, really being grateful, just opening things and going, oh, I loved this so much or oh, this was so important to me at this time.

Kathi (36:52.675)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (37:00.526)
And I am grateful for that. And it’s not staying in here because I have other things I need to do and I need the space. And if I leave it in here, I will not be able to do the things that I want to do. So this is probably the first time that I’ve decluttered with a clear vision for you need to be out of here because there’s other things that are more important. And so I was able to weigh and sometimes it’s I need.

Kathi (37:09.185)
right.

Kathi (37:18.912)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (37:27.858)
empty space more than I need to hold on to this memory. I need peace more than I need to hold on to this security blanket of a binder or whatever else it might be. And you know, let’s also be clear that there were things belonging to Rafiki in my office and we said farewell. We’ve said farewell to Rafiki at age 16 right before Christmas and you know.

Kathi (37:31.583)
Yes.

Kathi (37:35.857)
Right.

Kathi (37:43.831)
Hmm, so explain about Rafiki. Yeah

Cheri Gregory (37:53.278)
Everybody handles these things differently. And for me, I decided I was not going to keep things around, not because I was gonna go into denial, but because the sooner I could put everything in the car and be ready to take it down to Southern California, anything that’s really easily usable is gonna go to Anne-Marie with her cat, Zaboumafou, and then other things like I still had bags of fluid and special medications, it’s all gonna go to somebody who does foster kitten stuff.

Kathi (37:56.534)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (38:23.022)
And so, you know, but there were some things like, you know, his glucose meter. And I’m like, but I’m the only one who knows how to use this. But but there’s nobody left to use it for. And so there’s no reason for me to hang on to it, even though it was such an important phase of my life. Hanging on to the glucose meter is not going to bring him back. And it’s not going to bring that phase of life back. And so, again, I could be extremely grateful.

Kathi (38:23.671)
That’s so great.

Kathi (38:30.976)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (38:34.636)
Right.

Kathi (38:42.837)
Yes.

Kathi (38:46.846)
Right.

Cheri Gregory (38:51.994)
as I released it and was like, yeah, I’m just that I think I ended up giving to the goodwill because you know, but like you said, it’s there’s a lot of emotional stuff and I gave myself the time. I mean, I’m not talking weeks and weeks and weeks or anything like that, but I was like, it’s going to take as long as it takes. And but again, you know, looking at those things going, does this belong in 2024? Is this going to help me with these projects that I know have to get done this year really helped me be like new.

Kathi (38:58.784)
Yeah.

Kathi (39:15.392)
Right.

Cheri Gregory (39:21.646)
It’s not going to.

Kathi (39:22.311)
Yeah, you know, I have to ask myself, will this item meet me in my future? And yeah, it’s, it’s an interesting way of saying it, right? Because it’s a part of my past. And I take a lot of pictures of things that I’m giving away because, oh my goodness, I loved that jacket and I felt great in it, but you know, some people hold onto their clothes for 40 years. I’m just not that person. It’s for a time in my life. You know, you and I are both speakers.

Cheri Gregory (39:28.762)
Ooh, ooh, so good. Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (39:39.19)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (39:48.005)
Mm-mm.

Kathi (39:52.615)
I buy a couple of outfits per speaker season, I wear it to death, and then it’s time to, if I really love it, I might keep it for another year or so, or maybe two. But for a lot of things, it’s time to let it go, because the jackets I’m wearing are very distinguishable from other things that I wear.

Cheri Gregory (39:58.2)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (40:09.964)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (40:19.666)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (40:19.871)
You know, it’s okay if you want to wear the same thing over and over again But I’m just a different kind of person and that’s not normally how I roll and that’s okay But also like oftentimes I’ll wear something so much. It’s like, okay I’m kind of sick of it and it’s not gonna meet me in my future I’m going to appreciate it for where it served me before but it’s not gonna meet me in my future and that I’ve had Craft things like that. I’ve had

Cheri Gregory (40:24.206)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (40:36.105)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm

Kathi (40:47.627)
The ways I’ve cooked have changed, you know, all those kinds of things. This item’s not gonna meet me in my future. Any other, like one other piece of advice for, I love that you created space in your office and said space is valuable to me. Anything else, I mean, anything else that is new for you that helped you make these decisions.

Cheri Gregory (40:49.886)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (40:53.218)
So good.

Cheri Gregory (41:03.711)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (41:11.234)
Um, I evicted everything that other people had said needed to be stored somewhere. And I’m like, if you want it to be stored somewhere, you can find a place for it, but it will not be my office. I do not feel a need to store anything, anything somewhere. I, my office is not somewhere anymore. And, uh, and, and part of that is because I need to be able to move. I need physical.

Kathi (41:19.456)
out.

Kathi (41:26.623)
Right.

Kathi (41:33.183)
Oooo

Cheri Gregory (41:40.034)
I need to be able to get to my windows to open the blinds. I need to be able to pop up a table and work on it because I’m a spreader outer and then put it back and I need a place to store it. And so I’m just being a lot kinder to my physical body and saying I need the amount of space that I need and I enjoy the spaciousness. So yeah.

Kathi (41:43.157)
Yeah.

Kathi (41:56.354)
Right?

Kathi (41:59.747)
parents of adult children, your house is not somewhere. And yeah, so I think oftentimes when our kids say, yeah, I don’t want that, we don’t quite believe them. We think, oh no, you’re gonna want your third grade, second place soccer trophy. Now, maybe they need a picture of it, but they don’t need the trophy. Yeah, and so your house, your office, your bedroom, your space is not somewhere.

Cheri Gregory (42:03.634)
No.

Cheri Gregory (42:19.23)
I’m sorry.

Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (42:29.283)
Hmm.

Kathi (42:29.687)
and other people get to decide what they’re going to keep and what they’re not going to keep. And I’m not going to be the keeper of memories for other people. My kids get to decide what’s important to them. I don’t get to decide for them what’s important for them. I think that’s really, really great. Cheri, so much good advice here. So many practical things. Is this about…

Cheri Gregory (42:39.406)
Amen.

Kathi (42:57.639)
embracing imperfection? Or is this, do you see it differently?

Cheri Gregory (43:04.514)
Hmm. I mean, that’s I mean as long as the person listening is okay with the word imperfection. I would say yes I mean like I mean another way of saying it would be you know, accepting that we’re human and You know, I know there’s the scripture be therefore perfect and I know some perfectionists get really stuck on that But really what that word means is be mature Keep growing keep growing up

Kathi (43:11.099)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathi (43:17.187)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (43:28.491)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (43:31.01)
And you know, there are some areas in life where we want things to be perfect. Like when my dad had a quadruple bypass surgery, there was only one measure of success and that was perfection. I wanted that surgeon to do a perfect job and he did and I’m forever grateful. But it turns out that in other areas of our lives, there’s a much wider range and there is no one standard measure. And so.

Kathi (43:39.597)
Yeah.

Kathi (43:42.908)
Right.

Kathi (43:54.946)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (43:56.01)
You know, I think imperfection, yes, but I would also say things like curiosity and experimentation and iteration. I mean, for me, iteration has become a really big thing for me, realizing I’m going to need to keep trying and trying and trying and revising and revising and revising. And the goal isn’t necessarily perfection. The goal is, oh, this works better. Oh, this works better. And at some point I will iterate less because I will have.

Kathi (44:05.419)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (44:10.664)
Yes.

Kathi (44:18.836)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (44:24.246)
found all those things that are part of my normal routine and they will all work better. So I think part of it is realizing that we keep trial and error, trial and error, trial and error. And so if that falls under the category of imperfection, then by all means, embracing imperfection.

Kathi (44:41.959)
You know, what I think you’ve really taught us here is to be a student, to be a student of self, to be a student of space, to be a student of how you function in the world. And, you know, I think so often we see somebody else’s system and we think that should work for me.

Cheri Gregory (44:47.811)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (44:57.911)
Mm hmm. Yup.

Cheri Gregory (45:05.328)
Hmm. Mm-mm.

Kathi (45:07.691)
but it just doesn’t because our houses are different, our habits are different. There are so many things that are different and you’ve really given us an opportunity to say, how I move in the world is okay and I need to change my environment to meet those needs. I love it. Cheri, this has been such a rich conversation. Thank you so, so much.

Cheri Gregory (45:12.174)
Hmm.

Cheri Gregory (45:32.043)
Oh, thanks for having me.

Kathi (45:34.291)
And friends, thank you for being here for these good and deep conversations. You’ve been listening to Clutter Free Academy. I’m Cathy Lipp. Now, go create the clutter free life you were always intended to live.

Kathi (00:01.427)
Okay, this is Cheri Gregory, understanding the link between perfectionism and clutter. Five, four, three, two, one. Well, hey friends, welcome to Clutter-Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life. And if you have followed any of my writings, if you followed this podcast for any length of time, you already know my guest.

Her name is Cheri Gregory. She is a co-author with me on three books. I always wanna say two. I don’t know why. I don’t forget about the books, I know about them, but I feel like we’ve done some of our deepest work together. Cheri and I wrote Overwhelmed Together, You Don’t Have to Try So Hard, and An Abundant Place, our devotional together. She…

Cheri Gregory (00:38.137)
Hahahaha

Cheri Gregory (00:46.424)
Yeah.

Kathi (00:56.999)
I’m gonna let her describe a little bit of her work because her work has changed over the years. And I think she is doing what she most loves to do. She is my go-to person for HSP issues, which is highly sensitive people. And I just adore her. So Sherri, welcome back to the podcast.

Cheri Gregory (01:19.199)
I’m just going to take and receive all of that. Yeah, I mean, what I do these days is I hang around highly sensitive persons in Sensitive and Strong, my membership, the Sensitive and Strong Community Cafe. I just got done doing my master class, Growing Sensitive and Strong, and it was hilarious because the first night as we were introducing ourselves one by one, oh yes, I found out about you through Kathy Lipp.

Kathi (01:22.157)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (01:42.682)
Oh, yes, I found out about you from Clutterfree Academy podcast. Oh, I found out about you from reading Kathy’s books. So my people are big Kathy Lip fans.

Kathi (01:46.28)
No.

Kathi (01:49.415)
Oh, that makes me… Well, I’m big fans of their people. I’ve told you many, many times. HSPs are my favorites. I just did a whirlwind tour of San Jose. I had exactly one day and everybody, I almost have the people I met, either they were on the ADHD spectrum, ADHD, yeah. Feels like I was missing a letter there. Or they were my sensitive…

my highly sensitive people. So just explain what HSP is. This is not what this podcast is about, but kind of will be touching on some issues. So what does HSP mean?

Cheri Gregory (02:28.547)
The easiest explanation is it basically means sensory processing sensitivity, which means we are more easily overwhelmed than the average bear, often by external sensory stimuli. And more recently, I have learned by interoception, which means the stimuli that our own bodies produce. And since you can’t get away from your own body, that can be especially overstimulating. But yeah, it was it was not.

an accident that I wrote a bit about being a highly sensitive person and overwhelmed because that is the number one thing that my highly sensitive people tell me they’re dealing with is just feeling overwhelmed all the time.

Kathi (03:03.863)
Yeah, it’s been so interesting to see your journey on this. And today we’re talking about something a little different, but definitely has some overlap. And that is the link between perfectionism and clutter. And the reason I wanted to bring you on, Cherry, and guys, if you hear little tippy-tappies, I’m just gonna be really honest with you. Moose feels good. She’s going through chemo again, and she feels good for about 90 minutes each day.

Cheri Gregory (03:18.602)
Yes.

Kathi (03:32.839)
And right now happens to be the 90 minutes while we’re doing a podcast. So you know what? We’re just gonna let it be and be okay with it. And if you’re a long time listener, you’re excited that she’s feeling good for these 90 minutes. And if you’re new, this is just how we roll. So you know what? Right now she kinda does. I will admit, I had Roger bring me dinner and bed.

Cheri Gregory (03:35.15)
Aww.

Cheri Gregory (03:49.734)
Miss Moose gets to do whatever she wants right now.

Kathi (03:58.915)
so that I could, that’s where she’s most comfortable when she’s feeling her worst. And so I’m not moved. I it’s like waking the baby. That’s not happening in our house. Yeah. So we did something really interesting in Clutter Free for Life, our paid program that has led us to this call. And what we did is we gave everybody who signed up for the Year of our Lord 2024 for the paid program

Cheri Gregory (03:59.679)
I’m gonna go.

Cheri Gregory (04:03.458)
Yeah. 100%.

Cheri Gregory (04:16.492)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:27.483)
a 15 minute coaching call with either me or one of the other coaches, Deanna, Grace, Lisa, or Tanya. And I think I’ve probably had about 30 calls and maybe three of them have not said, well, I struggled with perfectionism. And yeah, talk about, I always knew that there was a connection for a lot of people between perfectionism and clutter.

Cheri Gregory (04:31.576)
Nice.

Cheri Gregory (04:45.511)
Ooh!

Cheri Gregory (04:50.902)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (04:54.839)
But I don’t think I realized that the line was straight through as much as it is. And so, of course.

Cheri Gregory (05:00.37)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so can I ask you a question? Okay, so first of all, kudos that you are obviously such a safe person for people to be confessing that because perfectionism is not something people regularly routinely confess. Like they’ll say, oh, I’m a procrastinator, ha ha, but perfectionism does not have any laugh track behind it. So I’m curious, did they give you examples of what they meant by being a perfectionist?

Kathi (05:11.002)
Oh, yeah.

Kathi (05:16.12)
Right. Yeah.

Kathi (05:22.974)
Right.

Cheri Gregory (05:29.342)
or struggling with perfectionism and clutter? What kind of things did they tell you went with that?

Kathi (05:34.723)
It’s the same sentence for everybody. I don’t start because I can’t get it all done.

Cheri Gregory (05:37.652)
Okay.

Cheri Gregory (05:41.411)
Oh, okay.

Kathi (05:42.739)
Yeah, it is what and I hear that all the time or people will say Kathy 15 minutes as you guys know When we’re talking about decluttering I tell people to declutter for 15 minutes because I feel like our the decider part of our brain Is really good for 15 minutes. Sometimes it’s really good for up to an hour But we’ve all had those days where it’s like i’m cleaning out the garage today And you know in the beginning

Cheri Gregory (05:46.781)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (05:51.431)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (05:59.323)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (06:09.565)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (06:12.315)
you’re getting so many decisions made and by the end you’re just rearranging clutter. So we had some, it’s almost always I don’t have enough time to do everything so I’m not going to do anything because you know in their brain why even get it started and I say you know you may not notice a ton after 15 minutes I bet you will but you may not notice a bunch after 15 minutes but

Cheri Gregory (06:16.099)
Oh, oh, absolutely.

Cheri Gregory (06:39.222)
Hmm.

Kathi (06:41.923)
After three days of 15 minutes, you are going to notice a difference. But it’s having to get started that I think is really frustrating for people.

Cheri Gregory (06:51.37)
Yeah, yeah. All right, so I am in the midst of reading a book on boundaries and I’ll send you the link to it later, but it says something really interesting at the beginning and here’s a sentence I’m gonna run by you. We can’t master something that’s a continual practice. And let me just adjust that for this conversation. We can’t be perfect at something that we’re always going to be exercising.

Kathi (06:56.888)
Mm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (07:11.751)
Okay.

Mm.

Cheri Gregory (07:17.418)
And so what I’m hearing in people who don’t want to get started is they feel like there’s going to be a point when they are completely done. And so if you’re going to ever get to that point where everything is perfect, then you should wait until you have time to do the whole thing and then stand back, sing the hallelujah chorus and enjoy it always being that way. Right. But if we recognize that this is a.

Kathi (07:25.377)
Mmm.

Kathi (07:30.024)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (07:41.18)
Right. Okay.

Cheri Gregory (07:45.39)
practice, that this is an exercise, this is an ongoing part of our lives, then there is no destination. And that’s part of what we need to take away is the sense that there is a finish line or a done point. And I’m really sorry for those who are listening if that’s super discouraging, but it simply means that as long as you are doing and you know, I push back against the 15 minutes, you know, I’m an overachiever. I’m not.

Kathi (07:46.933)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (07:51.215)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (07:54.547)
Right.

Kathi (07:59.255)
Mm-hmm. Yes

Kathi (08:04.64)
No.

Kathi (08:11.667)
Yeah, right.

Cheri Gregory (08:13.57)
15 minutes, Kathy, I’m going to do 15 hours, you know? But the practice of doing those 15 minutes is a habit of self stewardship, of taking care of yourself by taking care of the things that belong to you. And like you said, those first few days, you might not notice an awful lot of change, although you know what?

Kathi (08:17.122)
I… Right. Yes.

Kathi (08:29.686)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (08:40.17)
I mean there was a time years ago when I injured my back I could only do five minutes at a time and then I had to be on the couch for 55. Let me tell you when I put those blinders on I was able to be pretty darn proud of those of the little bit of space I cleared in five minutes. What do you see, Cathy, what do you see in those who have overcome this sense of I can’t start because I can’t finish it all in the same fell swoop?

Kathi (08:44.77)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kathi (08:56.683)
Well, and…

Kathi (09:07.187)
Well, I don’t want to say that they don’t believe me, but I think they kind of don’t believe me. And it’s, you don’t know my circumstances, you don’t know my situation, you don’t know who I live with. And so one of the things I’ve been saying to people is our circumstances are different, but our challenges are remarkably the same.

Cheri Gregory (09:14.623)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (09:19.246)
Hmm

Cheri Gregory (09:23.606)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (09:36.638)
Yes. Ooh, so good.

Kathi (09:39.291)
Yeah, you know, you know, I love some alliteration. It’s the only way I remember anything. And that, you know, people don’t feel like they’re being helped, which I agree with. And also, it’s not that people, especially adults, in your family should be helping you. This should be a family task, but oftentimes it’s not. And when your mother-in-law comes over, she’s not looking at her son and saying, why haven’t you picked up the house?

Cheri Gregory (09:41.886)
Oh yeah.

Cheri Gregory (10:07.902)
Yeah.

Kathi (10:08.715)
You know, we just know that right and so a lot of people I don’t think You know trust the process because the only results they’ve ever seen have been when they’ve killed themselves To get it. We also Believe in form over function. We believe that if it looks pretty it’s gonna work and

Cheri Gregory (10:22.536)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (10:33.326)
Yeah.

Kathi (10:35.139)
I can get my room looking pretty really quickly, but you know, one of my big things is you can’t organize clutter, because as soon as you touch it again, it’s going to explode, implode, whatever it’s going to be. And so we have to look at the function of a space. And none of us really have a master plan of what

Cheri Gregory (10:38.26)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (10:41.42)
Yep.

Cheri Gregory (10:45.113)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (10:53.869)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (10:59.392)
Mm-mm.

Kathi (11:00.671)
We have to make good small decisions over and over and over again to get a space to feel good. And then finally, I think the last thing is we have been sold a bill of goods by these decluttering and organizing systems, magazines, books, that, you know, everybody, it’s clean for a second, it looks nice for a second, it looks organized for a second, and then somebody actually tries to use it. And they don’t take the after picture.

Cheri Gregory (11:05.5)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (11:15.85)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (11:27.826)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (11:31.239)
I think those are a lot of the problems. Yeah. Well, so here’s my next question for you, because I know that you have also, you know, you’ve had your struggles with clutter. You and I have talked about those extensively. What do you think some of the misconceptions about clutter and perfectionism are? Because I think, for me, I think the one that I hear,

Cheri Gregory (11:33.174)
Hmm, absolutely. That makes sense.

Cheri Gregory (11:43.414)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (11:46.897)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (11:57.671)
is my mom was a perfectionist and it didn’t look like anybody lived at our house. And that’s their perception. Well, and you had a perfectionistic mom and nobody looked, it didn’t look like anybody looked at your house as a child, right?

Cheri Gregory (12:04.332)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (12:08.107)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (12:12.33)
Oh no, I mean she literally had white couches and white carpet, but after she passed and we started opening the cupboards, oh my goodness Cathy, she was a hoarder.

Kathi (12:22.003)
Oh, oh, OK, I knew about the closet. I don’t think I knew about the cupboards.

Cheri Gregory (12:25.234)
Yeah. Oh, yeah, everything was absolutely packed to the gills. So it looked perfect. The outward facing looked perfect. But every anything that was behind closed doors was chaos. I was even shocked. But it was all about keeping up the appearances, not necessarily the utility. I mean, putting in white carpet and white couches right as we were producing grandbabies. Come on.

Kathi (12:33.335)
Yeah.

Kathi (12:39.777)
Okay. So.

Kathi (12:53.299)
Right. So I think most people think when they think about perfectionists, they think about a house like your mom or at least what appeared to be your mom’s house. You know, why everything is perfect as soon as you use something it gets put away that kind of thing. But you and I have both experienced the other end of perfectionism and clutter.

Cheri Gregory (12:58.647)
Mm.

Cheri Gregory (13:03.538)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (13:17.474)
Hmm.

Kathi (13:19.551)
You know, what, how has that, how has your idea about perfectionism and clutter changed over the years?

Cheri Gregory (13:27.658)
Well, one of the things that’s really closely connected to perfectionism is procrastination, right? And so one of the things that I have learned that’s been so important, the whole idea of doing 15 minutes at a time has been really important in terms of breaking me away from the all or nothing thinking.

Kathi (13:34.986)
Yeah.

Cheri Gregory (13:49.582)
is that when I used to do those, because you’ve heard me, I’ve called you up before and been like, oh, I’m gutting my office this week, I’m gutting my whatever this week, I’m always using the word gutting, right? But it’s that all or nothing thinking. And one of the things I finally had to realize is that actually my brain and body remembers the way I treat it. And so when I don’t keep it doable for a human brain and body, which is that 15 minute chunk,

Kathi (14:00.066)
Ha ha

Cheri Gregory (14:19.794)
then my body is going to avoid allowing me to do what injured it last time. Because when we do these hours long days long things that kill us like you said because they do they kill our brains they kill our emotions they kill our relationships they are they’re hard on our bodies um what kicks in after that for me is procrastination and I used to think oh I’m being lazy oh I just need to push harder I need to try harder and I finally realized no actually this form of procrastination

Kathi (14:28.034)
Yeah.

Kathi (14:40.369)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (14:49.254)
is my body saying, no, we remember how you treated us the last time. We will not let you do to do that to us again. And so I’ve started actually, this is kind of a recent thing for me. I’ve started to actually trust my procrastination a little bit. I don’t mean massively, I just mean, oh, what are you trying to tell me? What memories are you holding on to that maybe I need to learn from? And recognizing that it has this incredibly self-preservation and protective purpose.

Kathi (14:53.019)
Yes, oh, so good. Yeah.

Kathi (15:04.363)
Mm-hmm. Right. Hmm.

Cheri Gregory (15:19.35)
And it’s helped me realize that some of those habits that can cause things to look good. And how many of us before family coming, before a holiday, before a major birthday party, you know, we’re like, okay, we’re all in, we’re going to do that perfectionistic rush of clean everything, spit, polish everything. Oh, by the way, let’s also hand make something and let’s paint something. And, you know, the home improvement kicks in. And then we are

Kathi (15:41.26)
Right.

Kathi (15:45.256)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (15:47.306)
And for those of us who might be slightly older or have some, you know, have fibromyalgia, or for those of us who are HSPs and our brains and bodies are like, ah, you know, the fact that we used to be able to pull it off when we were 20, doesn’t mean it’s good for us. Doesn’t mean that it has served us well. In fact, you know, I would love to hear from your listeners, Kathy. I would love to challenge your listeners.

Kathi (15:52.575)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (16:03.219)
Yes.

No.

Kathi (16:12.983)
Mm-hmm.

Cheri Gregory (16:14.934)
to think about this and then to email you or to reach out to Facebook, whatever, okay? I would love for them to think back to a time that they did that, where at the moment they felt really super proud of themselves, right? Like there’s a high that comes from perfectionism, from pulling it all off, from doing the stash and dash. So everything has been thrown into the back room and everything looks so perfect and they pulled it all off.

Kathi (16:18.711)
Yeah.

Kathi (16:27.862)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (16:34.728)
Yes.

Cheri Gregory (16:40.63)
But I’d challenge them to really spend a reflective 10 or 15 minutes thinking about the longer term cost of that. That moment of pride, did it really serve them in the long term? Did it really serve the people that were coming to the house? Did it really serve everybody who lived there? And when I look back at myself, I’m like, wow, that was nuts. Everybody cooperated because I was such a maniac, but the price was way too high.

Kathi (16:48.162)
Yeah.

Kathi (17:08.171)
Right.

Well, and I just think about those events, which, oh my goodness, I was the queen of stash and dash. I still work hard before an event, for having a retreat at our house or having a party or something like that, but it doesn’t feel like a massive push for a temporary fix. It feels like we’re actually putting things away

Cheri Gregory (17:36.353)
Oooo

Kathi (17:40.831)
we’re doing the things that are important, which is really, it’s a big turn in my life. But I also think about how exhausted I was when people finally got there. How, and how I tried to pretend that it wasn’t, that I was just, oh, that this all came naturally. None of it came naturally. I was near death.

Cheri Gregory (17:42.318)
Peace.

Cheri Gregory (17:53.806)
Hmm. Yes.

Cheri Gregory (18:06.414)
Mm-hmm.

Kathi (18:08.611)
And I wanted people to leave early because I was exhausted. It’s a whole thing. And when we come back, because what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna stop this conversation this week and we’re gonna come back next week. And I wanna talk about, I have some more questions. How do we actually break these habits? And I love what you said about paying attention to the procrastination.

Cheri Gregory (18:31.202)
Hmm

Kathi (18:36.923)
And as you were talking about, you know, getting ready for company coming over and things like that, all I could think about were the other two points in our book, performanceism and people pleasing. Like we’re trying to make sure that everybody in our family, you know, our moms know that they raised a good girl because their house, the house is clean. We’re trying to make everybody else feel comfortable. Yeah. All those kind of things. And

Cheri Gregory (18:46.85)
Yep.

Kathi (19:02.519)
how do we break some of those habits? Because no, I don’t want to invite people over to a pit. Let me be very clear. That’s really important to me. But how do we start to deal with the layers so the big push isn’t so big and that we can have, we can not just have people in our house comfortably, but live in our house comfortably. So we’re gonna come back next week. Cheri, this has been a great discussion already.

Cheri Gregory (19:25.337)
Mm, I love it.

Kathi (19:30.539)
but we’re gonna come back with some practical answers in the coming days. Friends, you’ve been listening to Clutter-Free Academy. I’m Cathy Lip. Now, go create the clutter-free life you were always intended to live.