Well, hey, friends, welcome to Clutter -Free Academy, where our goal is to help you take small, doable steps to live every day with less clutter and more life.

And guys, I’ve got a new friend to introduce us to. I was just on her podcast. We had a blast and I knew when I heard the title of her new book, she needed to come be with our clutter free people. This is Donna Jones. She is a national speaker. She’s the podcast host of That’s Just What I Needed. And she is the author of Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. Donna, welcome to the podcast.

Donna Jones (00:52.494)

thank you so much for having me, Kathi. This is fun.

Kathi (00:56.839)

Well, you know, it’s so interesting because I was just talking with my pastor the other day and we were talking about different stages in life and what I was telling him was for my listeners over 50, probably one of the most frequent questions I have is how do I pass this stuff on down to my kids?

And probably the most frequent question I get from people under the age of 40 is, how do I tell my parents I don’t want their stuff? And…

Donna Jones (01:30.318)

areas.

Kathi (01:31.335)

That is a situation that is ripe for conflict It’s so funny because I just had this conversation with my mom the other day We are going there and we’re sifting through some of her stuff and she said do you want to contact Kimberly? Who’s my daughter or do you want me to to ask her if she wants your wedding album and Let’s just be clear. This is the wedding album from me and her father not my current husband

because I am remarried. I’m like, mom, she doesn’t want it. And she goes, well, how do you know? And I said, because she doesn’t want anything. And she really doesn’t want the album. And by the way, I’ve asked her if she wanted any of the pictures. She’s like, no, I’m good. I would rather remember you guys separately than together. I’m like, fair enough. I agree with that. But there is so much drama over stuff. And.

Donna Jones (02:01.038)

No.

Donna Jones (02:27.502)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathi (02:30.343)

There are just, there’s so many scenarios where I believe you should want this stuff. And if you don’t want this stuff, what does that say about our relationship? Or you’re giving away the item that I gave you and what does that say about you and me? Or my kids thinking I should be able to hang on to their stuff for eternity. And there’s so much conflict.

over this stuff that is in our lives? And why do you think that possessions are such a hot topic? Or do you? Maybe you don’t agree with that.

Donna Jones (03:07.406)

no one. Yeah, no, no, no, I actually do. Well, to be honest with you, Kathi, almost anything can become a fair game for conflict. And so possessions fall into that category. And you know, it’s funny knowing I was going to come on your podcast, knowing that you’re clutter fleet, clutter free community here. I thought when we are embroiled in conflict, it clutters our mind.

Kathi (03:16.847)

Right.

Donna Jones (03:33.934)

It clutters our soul. I mean, the last thing we’re feeling is peaceful because we are replaying the conflict over and over and over. You know, we’re thinking about what he said, what she said, what we said, what we wish we said. You know, we’re going around, we’re talking about with our husband, with our girlfriend, with our mother. It’s just so consuming. Our brain is cluttered when we don’t know how to handle conflict well.

Kathi (03:34.311)

Yes. Yes.

Kathi (03:39.289)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (03:48.391)

Yes.

Kathi (03:55.815)

Yes.

Donna Jones (04:01.934)

So it’s just so, it’s so important.

Kathi (04:02.215)

100 % yes. I think of clutter as encumberment and conflict can often feel like encumberment but the commonality between stuff and conflict is both are necessary to a certain extent, aren’t they?

Donna Jones (04:08.192)

Yeah, I think perfect. Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (04:23.438)

Yes, yes. Okay, you’re exactly right because we have to have stuff, right, to live. And conflict is, if I could have written a book that was how to get rid of conflict from now into eternity, that’s time me up, right? But that’s not feasible. So thus, healthy conflict, peaceful life. We need to know how to deal with conflict in a healthy way, just like we need to know how to handle possessions.

Kathi (04:29.991)

Yes, right.

Kathi (04:37.671)

Girl, sign me up. Right.

Kathi (04:46.823)

Yes.

Donna Jones (04:52.782)

in a healthy way. And so we use our possessions, we don’t let our possessions use us. In the same way we use our conflict to work for us, we don’t let our conflict work against us, which is frankly what too many of us do. Because we just don’t know how, how do I handle this conflict? So to your point about the stuff and that people over 50,

Kathi (04:53.159)

Mmm, yes.

Kathi (05:13.959)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (05:19.342)

you know, how do I pass this down and the people under 50, how do I tell my parents I don’t want it? That goes to the way we view things. And Kathi, one of the things that I like to say that I really think is true is the way we view things determines the way we do things.

Kathi (05:28.551)

you

Kathi (05:38.823)

Okay, so unpack that for me.

Donna Jones (05:40.718)

Okay, so let me, I’m going to relate that to possessions first, then I’m going to relate that to conflict. So, because I know your audience is all about the possessions, the clutter. So the way you view a certain item, like let’s just go back to your mother and your wedding album. In her mind, she’s viewing it that way. That was a special moment. That was a milestone. So the way she viewed it is going to determine what she does with that. So how you view things determines how you do things.

Kathi (05:45.991)

Okay.

Kathi (05:51.207)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (05:57.671)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:02.055)

Right.

Kathi (06:09.271)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (06:10.67)

right? Your daughter views that as like, that’s just a reminder of what I don’t want to remember. So then that determines what she does with it, right? So if we can understand in terms of conflict, that one of the reasons we have conflict is because we’re viewing things a little bit differently. And we tend to assume that people just view things the way we view things.

Kathi (06:16.711)

Right.

Yes. Mmm, yes.

Kathi (06:33.927)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (06:39.982)

that this particular possession is as important to me as it is to you. And that’s not always the case. Or the fact that the house is neat is as important to me as is important to you. Or the fact that there’s a lot of clutter that’s no big deal, it goes on and on and on and on and on, right? So, which is why we have conflict with our kids over a messy room. What we define as we view it is, we tell our teenager, clean up your room.

Kathi (06:40.071)

Right.

Kathi (06:46.279)

Yes.

Kathi (06:53.223)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (06:57.447)

Right. Yes.

Kathi (07:03.912)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (07:10.382)

And we walk in and we’re like, are you kidding me? Like, okay, yeah, they pulled up their duvet and it’s not on the floor anymore, but the trash is still overflowing in there. There’s water bottles sitting around on the counter or whatever. And we’re like, this is not clean to me. So because the way we view things is you determining the way we do things and they’re viewing it differently. So.

Kathi (07:14.247)

Right.

Kathi (07:20.359)

Mm -hmm Right

Kathi (07:34.567)

Right.

Donna Jones (07:39.982)

You gotta talk about the way you view things.

Kathi (07:42.535)

Yeah, so let’s talk about this in the area of people you actually live with. So for me, that’s my husband. And now part -time, we live with my mom because we’re helping her deal with some stuff. And so how do you deal with the fact that there’s an emotional attachment? Or in Clutterfree, we talk about fear, guilt, and shame. Fear.

but what if I need that item someday? Guilt, so -and -so gave it to me, so I need to keep it for the rest of my life, and shame, I spent so much money on it, and if I give it away or throw it away, it just means I’m a wasteful person. And so we have these hangups, but our roommate, whomever that is, a spouse, a child, a parent, an actual roommate that you’re,

Living in the same space with doesn’t have that same emotional attachment to it How do you come to a place where you can discuss that? Maybe there’s some conflict or you know, is there a way to avoid the conflict when you’re discussing it or how do you get to the other side?

Donna Jones (08:45.582)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (09:00.238)

Yeah, that’s such a good question. And first of all, your listeners are ahead of the game because they know the three root causes. So they can assess themselves, okay, why is this important to me? But because they know the three root causes, they also have insight into what’s going on in the brain of the other person. So they can go, you know, and you don’t even have to say this to the other person. I wonder if that’s fear. I wonder if that’s shame. I wonder, you know, you can kind of, which is helps you.

Kathi (09:05.927)

Mmm.

Yes.

Kathi (09:13.191)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:19.559)

Yes.

Kathi (09:25.607)

Mm, right.

Donna Jones (09:29.966)

understand and understanding is one of the biggest keys to being able to resolve conflict when you understand another person’s perspective. So your listeners are already, you know, three steps ahead of most people. You do, you do. So I would say as you know, as you are, let’s say, trying to declutter some things, really talk about it.

Kathi (09:33.959)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (09:41.191)

We’ve got some smarties. We really do. Yes.

Donna Jones (09:57.326)

and just talk about, hey, what do you think about this? One of the things that, it’s even on my website, actually, Kathi, because I get this question so often, how do you start a hard conversation in a healthy way? And so sometimes when you’re working through clutter, you’re working through stuff, you’re working through, you almost wanna avoid it because you think, I don’t want this to be a big blow up, right?

Kathi (10:10.695)

Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (10:26.215)

Right.

Donna Jones (10:27.118)

So you need to know, okay, how do I even start this so that this conversation goes well, so the other person doesn’t get defensive, I still feel heard, and it doesn’t become a big conflict. So one of the things that I like to say is so helpful is that you start with a question. So most of us tend to start with our perspective, right?

Kathi (10:37.959)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Kathi (10:56.199)

Right, okay?

Donna Jones (10:56.878)

However, if you start with a question and you let the other person go first, then you find information about the way the person is thinking, feeling, you know, processing that you wouldn’t know otherwise. And it helps you know what to say next. Because now you’ve got this piece of information about this person and their perspective that you didn’t have before. And then number two, when they go first,

Kathi (11:03.783)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (11:24.487)

Right.

Donna Jones (11:26.99)

they feel like you’re automatically on their side and the defenses go down. So it’s a win -win. So you might say some, you know, let’s just say you’re cleaning out the garage with your spouse and you hold up some item that you think, I cannot believe that my husband still has this ridiculous hobby thing that he hasn’t done in 15 years, right? And…

Kathi (11:30.439)

Hmm, okay.

Kathi (11:37.255)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (11:46.959)

Right.

Kathi (11:53.031)

Right. Hey, let’s just use, for example, a guitar, which is just coming off the top of my head that I’ve seen, not that I have any, yes, but if you were going to give somebody a script, what would that script be? Would you ask questions about like, why is this important to you? What are your future plans? Yeah.

Donna Jones (12:02.19)

you have any?

In association with them. What would that script look like?

Donna Jones (12:19.118)

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I would say, okay, here’s what you don’t do. And then here’s what you do do. So you don’t go, you don’t hold it up and go, are you kidding me? We still have this. I thought we got, you know, gave this away five years ago. You never use this. This is definitely going to goodwill, right? So you don’t say stuff like that. Because of course the other person is going to get defensive and honestly, Kathi, even if they didn’t really want it, just by the fact that we said it that way, now they’re going to want it.

Kathi (12:24.167)

Okay.

Kathi (12:28.295)

Right. Yeah.

Yes.

Kathi (12:44.455)

Yeah.

Kathi (12:48.743)

Right, dig their heels in. Yes.

Donna Jones (12:48.878)

So we shot ourselves in the foot, right? So instead you hold up the guitar and you go, I forgot we had this. What do you think about this item? Should we give this away? What do you think about this? And we let the other person say, and let’s just say they say, no, I want to keep that. Then the next question would be, okay, well, tell me why you want to keep that.

Well, you know, the sentimental value, you know, whatever. Okay. Well, where would, where do you think it would, we should keep that so that it doesn’t clutter up our garage. So we keep, you know, asking these questions and the other, you’ll either find a solution about where it goes or the other person may even come to the conclusion like, you know what? I don’t really need that after all. But it’s kind of.

Kathi (13:27.783)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (13:36.135)

Right.

Kathi (13:42.215)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (13:44.046)

become a win -win and you haven’t gotten to fight over your stuff.

Kathi (13:47.079)

Yeah, I also am a big believer in whatever space I’ve allotted to myself that I don’t have to explain this to you. I allot to my partner. And so, you know, whether it’s a gorilla rack or a shelf on a gorilla rack, there are just some things that are hard to get rid of. Like I have a dress in there that I’ve literally never worn and.

Donna Jones (14:00.878)

Okay, yeah.

Donna Jones (14:08.558)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (14:15.495)

Roger does not care about it by the way, but I feel stupid that I’m keeping it, because I keep on thinking there’s got to be a way, I love this dress, I love it, but it just is a funky dress, and I tried it on, and I tried it on, and I’m like, hey, that looks cute, and then I got home, and I’m like, what was I thinking? And I bought it out of state, and so if Roger’s not gonna give me,

You know push back on this ridiculous dress that I bought maybe I need to leave the guitar alone But I do think that we have to figure out. I like your your thought Where should we keep this so it does so we’re not tripping over it every time we’re going through the garage like there are other ways to Have a win -win without somebody getting rid of it. I want to talk further about this We do need to go take take a commercial break and when we come back

I want to go over those questions one more time to give us a little script. Like to say, if we’re looking at this guitar case and we’re like, are you kidding me? This is still here. Why does this thing haunt me in my dreams? And we want to have, the goal isn’t necessarily to get rid of it. The goal is to live with the mutual decision it sounds like. And.

Donna Jones (15:37.678)

Yeah. Well, if you’re living with someone, yeah, exactly. Because that’s part of it.

Kathi (15:41.447)

Yeah, okay. I wanna come back and come up with those questions so that we can have that script that we can enter and do. So we’re gonna take a quick break, get this podcast paid for, and we’ll be right back.

Okay, Donna, here’s my question. I would love to give our listeners a little script. So, you know, let’s go back to the guitar, because that’s not a big deal. It’s just something that, well, let’s just be clear, I’ve lived with for 18 years, but it’s okay. Yeah, do I sound okay? Maybe not. So the first…

I’m not gonna say, are you kidding? We still have this guitar. This guitar haunts my dreams. We’re not gonna say that. We’re gonna say something more along the lines of, tell me about why this guitar is important to you or has been. Is that something like that?

Donna Jones (20:20.206)

Yeah, well, actually, we’re going to start with, yeah, we’re going to start with, what do you think we should do with this? Okay. That and, and.

Kathi (20:27.079)

Okay, and I’m gonna say, go ahead, tell me more.

Donna Jones (20:31.566)

No, well, I think the person goes, give it away. You’re done. I mean, you’re golden, right? You’re golden. Yeah.

Kathi (20:35.143)

You’re done. And you’re like, this is amazing. But I’m going to come back and say, but I played this in youth group, and that was kind of an important part of my life. And who knows, maybe someday I’ll pick it up again. Like these are not things Roger has necessarily said, but things that I imagine he might say. And I’m like, OK, but we don’t have a lot of room in our house. So like, what’s my next question for him?

Donna Jones (20:54.67)

Okay.

Donna Jones (21:01.166)

Yeah, so start with like, what do you think we should do with this? Then if they want to keep it, okay, tell me why that this is important. You feel like this is important to you. And then if they give you a reason, then say, okay, well, where do you think we should keep it so that it’s not in our way? And then you put it on them and then you need one. Yeah, find that place.

Kathi (21:08.519)

Yeah.

Kathi (21:20.615)

Okay, okay, to find that place. Okay, great. Now, I’m gonna challenge you with something bigger, Donna. We have people in our group, especially our paid group, Clutter -Free for Life, that their husbands have had things like farm equipment that they haven’t used in a decade, or cars, or…

I don’t know, you know, whole rooms dedicated to a hobby. So big stuff. How do you go to the next place in the conversation in big stuff?

Donna Jones (21:51.342)

So big stuff, big stuff. Yeah.

Donna Jones (21:59.566)

Yeah, yes, such a great question. Well, there is a chapter in the book called big things, little things, and everything in between. So part of handling conflict well is discerning. And when I say big things, little things, we’re talking about physical big things or physical little things, right? But there are emotional big things and emotional little things. So, you know, this is broader than just possessions.

So we got to discern, is this a big deal or a big thing or is this just a little thing like the dress in your closet? That’s just a small thing. It’s not a big deal. It doesn’t really take up much space and Rogers not, it’s not causing angst in your marriage, right? Small thing, let it go. But there are big things, emotionally big things or things like cars on the driveway or cars on the front lawn.

Kathi (22:29.543)

Right.

Kathi (22:46.503)

Right. Right.

Kathi (22:55.655)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. It’s a big deal.

Donna Jones (22:56.846)

that that’s a big deal, right? So that’s got to be addressed. That’s got to be addressed. In the book, I actually talk very specifically about a couple who were vastly different in the way they viewed a big thing. And their big thing was finances. He was a spender, she was a saver. And they just, every single time they talked about finances, it was World War Three.

Kathi (23:14.535)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kathi (23:26.503)

Donna Jones (23:26.798)

So it could be, you know, there’s somebody in your listening audience where their husband is kind of a hoarder, they’re trying to get it together and get clutter free, and it is just a constant conflict, right? So here’s what happens oftentimes is when we battle the same things over and over and over again, we tend to make the person the problem. Like if you weren’t such a hoarder, if you weren’t so invested in that darn car, you know, you see what I’m saying? So we make the person the…

Kathi (23:36.423)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (23:49.031)

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yes.

Donna Jones (23:56.397)

problem. But here’s why that doesn’t work. We can never solve a person. We can only solve a problem. So instead of making a person the problem, keep the problem the problem. So let’s just say you have, you know, you have a whole room that you can’t use because your husband’s taking it up.

Kathi (24:03.527)

Oof. Yes.

Kathi (24:12.967)

Okay.

Donna Jones (24:23.182)

And that’s, you need that room or you want that room or that bothers you for whatever reason. So what you’re gonna do is you’re gonna sit down and you’re gonna come up with, you’re gonna talk about something that could be like a win -win solution. So, and you’re gonna think about the other person’s interests, right? So this is called like,

Kathi (24:26.887)

Right.

Right.

Kathi (24:41.127)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (24:46.631)

Okay.

Donna Jones (24:50.318)

Well, I can’t even remember what it’s called. What else is going on? It’s going out of my brain. My brain is cluttered right now. Yeah, a little side note, Kathi. Yeah, you’re trying to get to a win -win. So you sit down and you write where you’re going with this. So let’s just say it’s both of us feel good about that extra room, right? That both of us feel good about that. The way that extra room is,

Kathi (24:53.095)

That’s okay.

That’s okay.

But you’re trying to get to a win -win, is what you’re saying. Yeah.

Kathi (25:10.439)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (25:15.911)

Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes.

Donna Jones (25:20.27)

being used. Then that’s where you’re going. So you’re both going in the same direction on this problem. Then you start brainstorming and you make a commitment, we’re just going to brainstorm this as a brain dump. So no, this is not the point where you go, that’s not going to work. No, you just like throw it out. But if there’s something that it’s like, that’s just, that’s not going to work for either of us. You can dump that one.

Kathi (25:21.607)

Yes.

Kathi (25:28.775)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (25:33.543)

you

Right.

Kathi (25:48.103)

Yeah.

Donna Jones (25:48.11)

And then you just start kind of, you know, you start kind of winnowing them down, but you’re always keeping in mind, okay, what’s the end goal? So this works for you, this works for me. And, you know, you kind of work toward that. Now that might take several conversations.

Kathi (26:08.647)

Right, I think the problem we often have is we want to get to the solution in 15 minutes when the problem has taken a decade. And that’s painful. So, you know, if there is a, you know, when you’re brainstorming saying, you know, I’d really love for our kids to be able to stay in that room when they come to visit. And I know your hobby is really important to you.

Donna Jones (26:13.678)

Listen. Listen.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Kathi (26:36.519)

Could we divide the space? Could we think through, could we use, you know, you used to collect coins and stamps and now you’re just collecting stamps. Could we do something with the coin? Like, I love the idea of brainstorming together to a solution where a common win is. And that common win is we both love our kids and we’d love for them to be able to stay here. Or, yeah.

Donna Jones (26:52.846)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (26:57.038)

Yes.

Donna Jones (27:02.286)

Okay, you just, that I just want to point out what you said, that was really key. We both love our kids. So you’ve just now put yourself on the same side. You have the same interest. So at some point in all of this, you’re gonna have a common interest in some area. It might just be your kids or you might,

Kathi (27:08.199)

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (27:15.079)

Mmm, yeah.

Kathi (27:23.047)

Right. Yeah.

Kathi (27:28.295)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (27:31.158)

If you always are thinking about just your interests, I want that room back because I want to use it as a guest bedroom. That’s never going to convince someone because you’re only looking at what’s important to you. You have to remember how you view things determines how you do things. So you have to always be thinking, what’s a win for you? What would be helpful for you? So when you do that, it’s easier to resolve your conflict.

Kathi (27:38.151)

Right, right.

Yeah.

Kathi (27:52.551)

Yeah.

Kathi (27:59.143)

Let me ask you this question because we have some people in some of our groups who are in really hard circumstances. And I’m thinking of one friend in particular who, you know, we talk about.

Donna Jones (28:08.846)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (28:16.167)

in our group saying, it’s really important to me that when we have people over, I’m not embarrassed by the house. That, you know, the house doesn’t have to be perfect, but I want people to feel comfortable coming into my house. And this friend said, but what if my family doesn’t care if I’m comfortable or not? And in my estimation, that’s not a clutter problem.

Donna Jones (28:25.006)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathi (28:44.647)

That’s a relationship issue. What would you say to somebody who says, my family doesn’t care that I feel blank, blank, blank.

Donna Jones (28:44.846)

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Donna Jones (28:56.782)

Yes. my goodness. It’s really interesting, Kathi, because in doing the interviews for the book and talking to people about the book, because the book is really a relational book, right? Because conflict is relational always. One of the biggest questions I get, it’s twofold really. One is what are the biggest mistakes that you can make in conflict? And

Kathi (29:08.551)

Yeah, yeah. Right, absolutely.

Kathi (29:22.439)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (29:24.686)

actually the biggest, well, I don’t know if this is the biggest, but one of the top three. I actually have a chapter in the book called the top 10 mistakes that people make in terms of conflict. But the top one of the top three would be being dismissive of another person’s concern, because that communicates disrespect, right? And it’s a very short walk from disrespect to the dissolution of a relationship.

Kathi (29:33.415)

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:40.647)

Mmm, yeah. Yeah.

Right?

Mm -hmm.

Kathi (29:52.487)

Yeah, absolutely.

Donna Jones (29:52.59)

So that’s why being dismissive is a really big deal. So that your friend is feeling dismissed. That’s a big deal. That needs to be addressed on a deeper. Yeah, it is.

Kathi (30:00.231)

Yeah, it’s a huge deal. So is that something to take to a counselor at that point? Because that doesn’t feel like anything I can address about clutter. But I do feel like that’s not OK. Roger would never tell me, I don’t care how you feel. That would never come up. So.

Donna Jones (30:12.942)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Donna Jones (30:19.598)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Kathi (30:27.079)

Is that the next step or are there steps in between somebody saying that and going to a counselor?

Donna Jones (30:32.207)

Yeah, I think there are steps in between because sometimes we assume that, let’s just say your friend has communicated. See, that’s the other thing. Sometimes we assume that we’re communicating what’s important to us, but we’re actually not communicating it clearly. So one of the things that my husband would like to say is expectation without communication always leads to frustration.

Kathi (30:34.535)

Okay.

Kathi (30:58.279)

that is true, yes.

Donna Jones (31:00.334)

Yeah. So we have to make sure, wait, did I communicate this in a clear way? And if I didn’t, that’s maybe why I’m frustrated because the other person’s not clear on my expectation.

Kathi (31:04.743)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Okay. I’m expecting you to mind read and suddenly you’ve lost that power. Darn it. Okay.

Donna Jones (31:14.03)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that’s the first step. Did I communicate this? My wants, my needs, my expectations, whatever. And then if, let’s just say you did, and the other person’s like, well, I don’t care. Why is that a big deal to you? Now that’s when you need to have a deeper conversation.

about and you need to really address some of these issues, right? Now, this may not be counseling level yet. This is where you make conflict work for you rather than against you. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is a conflict continuum that on either side of an unhealthy way of dealing with conflict is

Kathi (32:00.839)

Mm -hmm.

Donna Jones (32:07.086)

On one side is avoidance, we’re the avoiders, and on the other side are the attackers. And probably all of your listeners know where they are, either more toward avoidance or more toward attacking, and they also probably know what their family members are, right?

Kathi (32:12.775)

Mm -hmm.

You’re right.

Kathi (32:23.431)

We’re two avoiders married to each other, so you know, nothing ever gets done. Yes.

Donna Jones (32:27.502)

basically you know you know right so here’s the thing Kathi neither of those is healthy or biblical so instead of being an avoider or an attacker the sweet spot in the middle is are the addressers and these are the people who have learned to address the issues so that the conflict ends up

Kathi (32:35.175)

Right.

Donna Jones (32:54.222)

being able to be resolved or worked through or at least managed in a healthy way. Okay? So, and a lot of the book is, okay, how do you do that? Because that’s the golden ticket. That’s the golden question, right?

Kathi (32:56.967)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kathi (33:05.671)

Right.

Yeah, so yeah, and I will correct myself and say with Roger and myself we are addressers to each other, but we were born both avoiders. So we are growing, we are growing, we’re still avoiders with some other people because my goodness, yeah. Okay, so just a final question here. If somebody, you know, and I definitely, guys, I recommend the book and we’ll put a link in there for,

Donna Jones (33:18.126)

that’s good.

Donna Jones (33:22.702)

Hahaha!

Kathi (33:38.119)

for all of you to check that out. If somebody is saying, you know what, this has been something, I’m tired of avoiding the conversation, or I’m tired of the fight level in my household, because I know that this is a short trigger for me.

I get very angry when I talk about that. What is one major step we can do to address the conflict in a healthy way that we haven’t talked about yet in the podcast? You say, my end goal is for both myself and this person I live with to have a good outcome. I want to address this in a healthy way and I don’t want to go back to my old patterns of attack or avoidance. What’s one thing I can do?

Donna Jones (34:36.014)

Okay, when most people think of how to handle conflict, they think of what action do I need to take? But the most important component of handling conflict well is not an action. It’s an attitude. And that attitude is humility. And here’s why.

Humility allows us to both see our perspective and the other person’s perspective. And humility is not the same thing as humiliation, right? Humility simply makes us a doorway for conversation, not a doormat for exploitation. So they’re really different. So if we’re humble, then that opens the door for further conversation.

Kathi (35:28.647)

No.

Kathi (35:38.279)

Mmm, yes.

Donna Jones (35:47.118)

So we really have to go back to this is you and me, not you versus me. So let me tell you, let me just close with this story that this was such a powerful but yet simple thing that my husband taught me really just by the way he responded to me. We were having a conflict early in our marriage.

Kathi (35:56.007)

Right.

Donna Jones (36:11.694)

And I really wanted him to see my perspective and he really wanted me to see his perspective. And we were going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And you know how that goes. Nobody’s really listening to each other and you’re interrupting each other and the conflict is escalating, escalating, escalating. And then we got to the point where JP just looked at me and he goes, Donna, Donna, I’m on your team. And Cathy, that phrase, I’m on your team, literally.

de -escalated that conflict in a nanosecond. Because what that did is it reminded me that, okay, we’re not adversaries here. And let’s try to work this out. But sometimes we just have to say that out loud. We have to verbally express our humility. Hey, I’m on your team. And we can do this. That takes humility.

Kathi (36:45.127)

Yes.

Kathi (36:53.159)

Right.

Kathi (37:05.275)

Yes. When it comes to decluttering, when it comes to decluttering, I think one of the humility stances we have to take is I, even though I belong to this group, I listen to this podcast, like I’m up in the clutter all the time, I don’t necessarily have the best answer. Like,

Maybe my spouse or my roommate or my child or my parent has a better idea how to handle this thing that we perceive as clutter. Maybe they have a better idea or maybe brainstorming together. We can because I think most of us know, well, that should be thrown away or that should be donated or that should be stored in this way. And to say humility says I want to win for both of us.

So let’s brainstorm together and be on the same team. Because our common enemy is the chaos in our lives. And being on the same team says, we don’t defeat each other, we defeat the chaos. And that’s what we’re going to do here. Donna, this is such a great perspective. Friends, the book is called Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. And isn’t that?

Donna Jones (38:11.597)

Mmm, yes.

Kathi (38:30.887)

I know we all want to avoid the conflict. We can’t avoid the conflict. So let’s deal with it in a healthy way. We’re going to have notes and links in the podcast notes so that you can go find out more about Donna, more about the book, and more about her podcast. Donna, thanks so much for being on ClutterFree Academy.

Donna Jones (38:49.902)

thank you so much, Kathi. This was just a joy.

Kathi (38:52.807)

This is so much fun to talk about from all the different perspectives for me. I just love it and friends Thank you for being here. You’ve been listening to clutter free Academy. I’m Kathi Lipp now go create the clutter free life You’ve always wanted to live